I think one of the main problem is that we haven't determined on clear activation condition for Big Heat yet.
Somebody builds a house with 10 doors (9 with dog and 1 with safe), but no commit gate, so I decide to run back to the entrance upon reaching wrong door and try again - each trip therefore takes about 20 seconds. About four times into doing this, I'm suddenly hit with 6 hour ban?
I have no problem with normal Heat that blocks re-try for certain amount of time depending on amount of step taken, tool etc. but Big Heat seems too arbitrary.
The point of Big Heat is to force effective scouting through some combination of skill and money, and study what you've learned in the increasing downtime between raids. If you can't think to bring a dozen drugged meats and defeat a $3.5 security system with $1k of meat on your second or third run, that's on you (and on the owner for such an unimaginative defense).
Even if a skillful or rich player only gets close to the vault, they are committed after several runs and spending some money, so a homeowner must respond or risk losing his vault and/or wife once the heat dies down. He's still screwed if he's on "vacation" or lacks the money or imagination to respond.
]]>Somebody builds a house with 10 doors (9 with dog and 1 with safe), but no commit gate, so I decide to run back to the entrance upon reaching wrong door and try again - each trip therefore takes about 20 seconds. About four times into doing this, I'm suddenly hit with 6 hour ban?
I have no problem with normal Heat that blocks re-try for certain amount of time depending on amount of step taken, tool etc. but Big Heat seems too arbitrary.
]]>The only problem with this - is that it encourages Home Owners to create traps they know will take a very long time - So that if you even have Five tools, you will not make it to the end. Though, no one is really that OCD with this game... right?
You can still make multiple trips (fewer with more tools, or more with fewer tools) within the space of an hour. Again, a skilled, persistent, and sufficiently equipped (and lucky) robber will still prevail.
]]>Granted I really love diving into logic problems more than most and have sunk a lot of thought into this game, it became very quickly apparent the power of tools. While I still enjoy thinking up interesting trap designs, it's become very discouraging. I think "Well unless I babysit my home to spend money as it comes, I'll quickly reach the reward outweighing the cost of tools. And even then, what's my goal? Eventually get a master design that can still be broken by enough tools?"
ventuswings wrote:protox13 wrote:We're all ears, then. What's your proposal?
Let's just see how much of a effect 'more tools = less time' update have, then add more system if necessary. I am rather cautious about dumping bunch of new systems with varying foreseen and unforeseen consequences on a single patch.
Without Big Heat or an equivalent, fuel and wheelbarrow burden will not prevent a robber from making several consecutive attempts at cracking a house- it's just spread out over several trips instead of one big one. Fundamentally, a rich robber is still unstoppable. Given enough time and money a robber can still be confident that he can crack a house with no fear of death or being beaten to it by other robbers, which IMHO is unbalanced. Other robbers and the homeowner are left out in the cold.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
PS: While discouraging, it isn't altogether dissuading. I've put in 18 hours since I bought the game, not counting time building in my head and on paper at work, and plan to spend many more.
]]>protox13 wrote:GoogleFrog wrote:This is sounding quite complicated. I like elegant systems.
We're all ears, then. What's your proposal?
Let's just see how much of a effect 'more tools = less time' update have, then add more system if necessary. I am rather cautious about dumping bunch of new systems with varying foreseen and unforeseen consequences on a single patch.
Without Big Heat or an equivalent, fuel and wheelbarrow burden will not prevent a robber from making several consecutive attempts at cracking a house- it's just spread out over several trips instead of one big one. Fundamentally, a rich robber is still unstoppable. Given enough time and money a robber can still be confident that he can crack a house with no fear of death or being beaten to it by other robbers, which IMHO is unbalanced. Other robbers and the homeowner are left out in the cold.
]]>GoogleFrog wrote:This is sounding quite complicated. I like elegant systems.
We're all ears, then. What's your proposal?
Let's just see how much of a effect 'more tools = less time' update have, then add more system if necessary. I am rather cautious about dumping bunch of new systems with varying foreseen and unforeseen consequences on a single patch.
]]>This is sounding quite complicated. I like elegant systems.
We're all ears, then. What's your proposal?
]]>For Big Heat, a color-coded scheme (yellow for 5 min or less, light orange for 5-15 min, dark orange for 15-60, red for 60+ min) and a message about the cops still being at the crime scene.
For wheelbarrow burden, first 5 free, 6-15 1x a set multiplier, 16-25 1.3 x set multiplier, 26-35 1.6 x set multiplier, etc. So you can bring a lot of tools but more than 50 or so, you've got say 3-5 minutes to use them.
]]>What if we combined the two and added the heat option to promote scouting?
For fuel maybe a 2% instead of the 5% that was suggested for each item? Make the increase start after say 3 or 5 of a tool instead of just 1? This "soft" cap of tools means that it is better to carry a good variety of tools instead of just trying to tear down every wall.
For heat make it so that you have 15 seconds free, after that it starts to count, and for certain values it locks you out for a certain amount of time. I would say it shouldn't be linear, like only a minute for up to 30 or 45 seconds, then another for 60, but then for every 5 seconds after add a minute until it hits a cap of like 20 min? It's no longer a scouting trip if you are probing every defense, it's a full fledged break in at that point.
As far as the "more tools=less time", it is pretty self explanatory. The more you rely on crutches, the better at the game you will need to be. If you don't know typical trap set ups or layouts then trying to brute force will leave you with not enough time to succeed. It will force the player to make yet another calculated risk before even heading to the house, time or tools?
Now it would take LOTS of money, a scouting trip, and quick thinking and knowledge of the game mechanics to successfully brute a house, instead of just loading up, picking a house, and winning.
]]>I don't think we need big heat. People seem to brute force blind.
Personally I like Big Heat because it gives robbers a soft cap on how often they can raid a place in a given time and allows the home owner to respond, which is currently something that IMHO is unbalanced. Where is the challenge, the tension on the robber's side? I work a regular job and would prefer to enjoy the challenge of the game without letting it detract from others aspects of my life. Jason can always leave the value fairly generous at first and then tighten it.
]]>So, the reason I thought the "heat time" should be based on the amount of time in the last robbery is so that very short scouting trips are still okay (peek in, see some dogs, come back in a second with drugged meat). I WANT to encourage scouting and tactical tool choices like that.
More tools = less time is pretty sensible in many ways, and is super easy to implement on the server. Effectively, like you're moving slower with all that weight! And then scouting tool-free can be given the most time.
It could be pretty crazy for a really big heist.... like you come in with all these tools, but 30 seconds left, right from the start! Quick, cut through them walls!
There's also the option to make "heat" come in the form of faster police response next time. So, there's no delay before you can rob again, but if you pop back in immediately after a long robbery, the sirens start sooner than they would otherwise.
Or... it's like you have 20 full minutes from the moment you enter the house to "finish it," no matter how many times you leave.
Example:
1) come into house, have full 20 minutes, but leave after 4 minutes.
2) Back home for tools, spending 1 minute.
3) return to target house, have 15 minutes left, leave after 10 minutes.
4) Back home for more tools, spending 2 minutes.
5) return to target, have 3 minutes left, leave at the bell.
6) Must wait 20 minutes now before going back in.Though this would require an N^2 tracking table on the server (how much time left for each player in each house) and is kinda messy.
Why not start the heat timer after, say, 15-30 seconds? That's a reasonable time to scout and see what tools you'll need initially; any longer and folks are probably not just scouting.
Also, no penalty for the first 3-5 tools; that's how much a person could carry on their person and enough for a second, more in-depth scouting run. But then you'd have to wait a bit, which would be fine because you're reviewing what you've scouted.
What about a cumulatively increasing Big Heat score, a function of how many times you've raided a house within a certain amount of time. A Big Heat point drops after, say, 12 or 24 hours; the first one makes you wait 0 minutes, the second 1 minute, the third 3 minutes, the fourth 5 minutes, the fifth 15 minutes, the sixth 30 minutes, the seventh 60 minutes, the eighth 120 minutes, and so forth. I like that because at first, it's not a problem (people will want to plan around what they've discovered anyway), but after a certain point you're being punished for not scouting effectively or efficiently (because if there's no penalty for many fast raids with few tools, that's exactly what players will do). Bored? Review your notes, go have dinner, or go case other houses.
Yeah, imagine you're walking in, armed to the teeth and with the sirens already blaring- that would be a tense, high stakes raid! I think an effective result of this is forcing the robber to find at least part of the safe path via scouting to save time and money later, instead of just brute forcing. Maybe a timer and fuel surcharge at the loadout screen?
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