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#26 2013-07-04 07:09:58

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Oh, sorry, I was mistaken about how that part of the engine works.  Long ago, stuff used to be only triggered by the presence of a mobile (not the absence), but that changed at some point to let an animal block a door that's trying to close (and then allow the door to finish closing after the animal leaves).

So, there are both "mobile" and "noMobile" trigger conditions now.

I was thinking back to the days when I was implementing switches, and there wasn't a "noMobile" trigger condition back then.


Anyway, yes it is possible, and not hard.  However, I'm still wondering how useful and interesting they would be....  You know, given that nothing happens in this game when you're not moving, so it's not like anything is happening while you're standing on a pressure plate.  It's only interesting if something happens exactly as you step on or off, in those two moves.  I'm trying to avoid a lot of duplicate functionality in the house objects (keep it simple, avoid "kitchen sink" design style).

SO....

Can you demonstrate (via Castle Fortify.... just use a light in place of a pressure plate or something) an interesting mini-design that uses pressure plates but would NOT be possible to emulate without them?   (You know, two dogs walking behind each other turn a regular switch into the same behavior as a pressure plate, right?)

Maybe something where every time you hit the plate, a "dog dispenser" lets one more dog out?  I dunno...

Hmm.. interesting..  Challenge on!

I originally was thinking of traps where 2 or more pressure pads had to be down simultaneously to power something... I like that dog dispenser thing though...

Let me see what I can knock up;- and hopefully anybody else who cares to try!

Edit:  Okay it is far harder than I thought to come up with ideas.  I made this, which I am note sure is mini or a particularly good use of the pressure plate: http://castlefortify.com/c/6bf5d5a I found most of the things I drew out could be achieved with two dogs/cats... HOWEVER, that doesn't mean this switch is useless, just that it is a compact version of needing to have multiple pets, etc. 

BUT, I am putting it to the people... if you want this game to have a pressure pad we need to convince Jason it has a viable use.  Get tinkering and I am sure we can come up with unique things!


Also, regarding the new move-on-sight rule, how about we have bullet-proof glass?  I imagine windows are going to become very important if that is implemented and it would be nice to throw something down which isn't so vulnerable.  I was thinking bulletproof windows would be impervious to everything but torches or explosives....

Last edited by dalleck (2013-07-04 08:11:01)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#27 2013-07-04 10:45:19

ukuko
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 333

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

I guess it makes it simpler to create a trap where you need to have a dog behind you to pass.

http://castlefortify.com/c/a85ab71

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#28 2013-07-04 11:05:22

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Yeah, that's one example...  it kindof replaces the electric floor / trapdoor combo.  I do like that combo, though!

And it's really cool when combos can create functionality that is not present at all in individual items.

You know, I'm trying to give you atoms so that you can build your own molecules.

I'm looking for evidence that a pressure plate really is an atom that can be used to build molecules that are different from what's possible now.

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#29 2013-07-04 13:52:34

paciferal
Member
From: TX
Registered: 2013-06-23
Posts: 15

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

I know I wanted a pressure plate for putting together hallways that had electric floors that turn off when you're next to them. You could do that with dogs and cats, but with the new pet behavior this is more more difficult.

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#30 2013-07-04 13:57:13

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Can you mock up a mini design in CastleFortify that shows this?

Why do you want an electric floor to turn off when the robber is next to it?

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#31 2013-07-04 14:55:12

paciferal
Member
From: TX
Registered: 2013-06-23
Posts: 15

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

It would make the electric floor harder to throw water on. Of course it would only work if the pressure plate disconnected power when stepped on.
http://castlefortify.com/c/2755cdf

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#32 2013-07-04 16:00:31

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

I'm not convinced. Or to put it differently: I see the use from a defense perspective but it would just allow for a lot of things to be done easily which now take a lot of cunning and often bite you in the butt during self-test. I had this "trapdoor-electric"-pattern thing in a past house and it took me quite a while to get it working with a complex box of rotaries, switches and powered switches and killed me after a robbery. (That was before the Blipiphany of electronics) and I was rather pleased with myself after I got it to work. I think this notion of "having to work with basic tools to get something cunning going" is essential to the game and pressure plates would just mean you have to think a lot less.

I always wished for a one-sided relay, something that only conducts power in one direction (I have died many times because of intersecting powersources I hadn't accounted for.) But then again, it can be done by adding one powered switch at the right spot, so I think the game's all the better for hitting the limits at times but then realising that the limits were to one's own creativity and not a problem of the game.

Off-topic (or on-topic rather?): It's hilarious and weird at the same time how few people got the new animal rules, despite the email and all. Half the folks still dance on the doorstep or hop into an unpowered trapdoor without ever seeing a single animal. Blind faith seems to be going strong in TCD.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#33 2013-07-04 17:46:16

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

I think my previous comment was lost in an argument about cats (and I posted 1 minute before Jason), so I'm going to reiterate part of what I said:

2. I can already foresee a weak version of the magic dance surviving if pets keep moving even after they can't see you. Simply leave a 1 tile opening (e.g. glass) to get a dog to start chasing and you're good to go: http://castlefortify.com/c/4a1aebe

Of course, you could easily disable magic dances completely by getting rid of the "chasing forever" mechanic in your proposal. Any reason why it couldn't be chase on sight only?

I've already seen this in the wild and it's fairly strong (9 trapdoors thick). Robert Thomas Walker has one:

robert-thomas-walker.png

Like I said, the magic dance will still exist UNLESS the mechanic is changed to chase on sight only. This may or may not be desirable, but I wanted to put it out there.


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#34 2013-07-04 17:58:23

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

The only advantage is that the distance is limited - bringing nine ladders is not entirely out of the question and its a zero risk enterprise. Do that once and you know the combination, so the owner will have to constantly rewire his defenses if enough middle class players are able to afford 5k worth of ladders.

Still, there's not really a reason why animals shouldn't chase on sight only. Except maybe that this would be an easy way to get a pitbull "just right" along a corridor - just get out of the field of view and back and it shoudl be one step closer, allowing for the cheap crowbar killing of this and all dogs to come. Time for funeral arrangements...


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#35 2013-07-04 18:05:32

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Still, there's not really a reason why animals shouldn't chase on sight only.

Well, it'd be nice to change it to completely defeat magic dances, but that would ruin a lot of electronic tricks. Most of those are, again, impossible for the robber to see.... so maybe they're not worth keeping.


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#36 2013-07-04 18:23:26

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

I'm with you I guess. Figuring out requires knowledge of what happens. If you don't know what's happening, there's no choice of yours involved.

Still, abolishing the magic dance entirely would make house building almost pointless I guess as unlimited tools can't really be defended against with only conventional means imho. You can do electronics (press this, then that, then that button a given number of times), but that's not really all that brilliant either I guess.

I don't know, I kind of dislike this whole robber-killing turn the game has taken. The subtitle is "protect what's yours" and not "try to kill as many people as possible before somebody destroys all you have" which would be more correct at the moment. Probably there has just been so much hostility lately (and the game allows for psychology to shape it freely), that one feels like proper defenses are needed, because even though the first bloke might only take your stuff, someone will come along to club all your dogs, break all your switches and destroy anything else that moves right after that so you're basically back to square one after a few hours of absence.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#37 2013-07-04 18:25:35

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Pressure Pad Design:

This http://castlefortify.com/c/197610a is an impossible design without pressure pads, as back-tracking a row of buttons is involved.

I can see this type of element added to a house for certain ascetic reasons as well, and not only that, if you add in a timer/ pit somewhere then this can be pretty valid trap to traverse when you might be so cocky that you get in too far and then cant escape.

Last edited by dalleck (2013-07-04 21:13:28)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#38 2013-07-04 20:51:05

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

So the house Jere posted a pic from was mine, which I guess means that I was Robert Thomas Walker. I died while carelessly robbing someone for a mere couple hundred dollars though (this has happened to me so many times when my house has been strong enough that I should have just sat still).

Anyway, I must agree that magic dances are far from eliminated. In the house Jere's screenshot is from, I was building several more copies of the same magic dance defense. So even if you get past the first, well, now you have two more. I also had a few other ideas for added security, so I think in the end, it would still require at least 15K of tools to break through (a lot more with multiple routes and bad luck, e.g. Taber's house before his demise). However, that's still better than the 25K or more required before the new animal movement rules.

I have to say that I do like the new animal movement rules though. I think the game is much more fair to robbers (and more realistic). It also makes the way that the field of view moves a lot more interesting. Since animals will only be triggered when visible, one must think very carefully about how many steps a robber will need to take before the screen view shifts and thereby reveals an animal.

Last edited by Ludicrosity (2013-07-04 20:53:30)

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#39 2013-07-05 05:16:13

Matrix
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 137

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Ludicrosity wrote:

I also had a few other ideas for added security, so I think in the end, it would still require at least 15K of tools to break through (a lot more with multiple routes and bad luck, e.g. Taber's house before his demise). However, that's still better than the 25K or more required before the new animal movement rules.

15k cap for your design or in general? Because in general the cap is still the same as before, the only difference is that now the house owner has to spend more money if he wants to achieve the cap.

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#40 2013-07-05 05:33:41

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

arrrgh. wish you could go weapon shopping while someone is robbing you sad been locked out of my house for... uhh, well, a very long time. hasn't been this long since v5!

Bays stole $0 in 1305 steps

they couldn't even explore anything interesting! arrrr

Last edited by largestherb (2013-07-05 05:50:19)

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#41 2013-07-05 05:54:28

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

Matrix wrote:

15k cap for your design or in general? Because in general the cap is still the same as before, the only difference is that now the house owner has to spend more money if he wants to achieve the cap.

I think it will inevitably take fewer tools to break through with the new animal behavior because having multiple short-distance traps requires using up valuable space in the house for the trap mechanisms - space that would otherwise just be more walls/pits. It also makes it less ambiguous where the mechanism is located each time. The other thing is that the first trap is the longest since the initial view screen (far left side of house) has more space between the player and the right boundary of the view than at any other time. So the player needs to get closer to the next trap mechanisms to activate the pets. Maybe there are clever ways around this though.

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#42 2013-07-05 06:01:18

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

largestherb wrote:

arrrgh. wish you could go weapon shopping while someone is robbing you sad been locked out of my house for... uhh, well, a very long time. hasn't been this long since v5!

Bays stole $0 in 1305 steps

they couldn't even explore anything interesting! arrrr

I think that was me. tongue

I guess that makes you Brewington. I see that you placed a new dog next to the cat just now.

EDIT: I actually left your house by accident too. I had wanted to try some other things, but carelessly hit the left key by mistake when I was in the entrance.

Last edited by Ludicrosity (2013-07-05 06:03:19)

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#43 2013-07-05 06:02:26

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

i added a whooole bunch of new dog friends for adventurers to play with. found quite a few free $2000s hanging around while i waited so they were practically free!

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#44 2013-07-05 15:12:03

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

dalleck wrote:

Pressure Pad Design:

This http://castlefortify.com/c/197610a is an impossible design without pressure pads, as back-tracking a row of buttons is involved.

I can see this type of element added to a house for certain ascetic reasons as well, and not only that, if you add in a timer/ pit somewhere then this can be pretty valid trap to traverse when you might be so cocky that you get in too far and then cant escape.

Okay, I see.  So trapdoors can close right as you step on them, and then open right as you get off of them.  That does look pretty cool!

Though, I guess I'm still pretty hesitant to add something like this, given all the "big picture" parts of the game that are in flux.  For now, I've added this to my "someday" feature list.  I'll likely add this once the other aspects of the game settle down.

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#45 2013-07-05 15:22:17

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

The point of the new animal movement wasn't to "eliminate" magic dances.  It was to make them more transparent.

Even in the worst case posted here, that chihuahua can at least be seen, and you know that he must be the key to opening those trapdoors, and you know where he's going (up and down) to do that.

Yes, there is other stuff to bypass later in this house, but if you bring in the 9 ladders, you can study that fist chunk in isolation for that price, and figure it out.  Then you can bypass it with no tools next time, and scout the next chunk freely.  Maybe you'll need ladders for that too, in which case you'll bring those.

You might need 27 ladders total in this process, just like you would have in a v11 house with a single row of trapdoors 27 long.  But in this case, the experience of solving it is much richer.

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#46 2013-07-06 08:00:04

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: A proposal about new animal movement?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Okay, I see.  So trapdoors can close right as you step on them, and then open right as you get off of them.  That does look pretty cool!

Though, I guess I'm still pretty hesitant to add something like this, given all the "big picture" parts of the game that are in flux.  For now, I've added this to my "someday" feature list.  I'll likely add this once the other aspects of the game settle down.

Sweet!  I also have two other ways I was thinking of using pressure plates, but I think I will keep them for my house designs....


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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