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#1 2013-05-10 08:11:37

Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

An alternative to maps

Maps.  Interesting to buy.  Maybe a little too easy.  Like the difference between bedding a prostitute or someone you picked up at a club.

I am offering the club root.. ahem, route.

Here is how it goes.  You can case every house you wish once per day and it costs cash.  The option would appear in the rob menu to 'case' the house.  You would be taken into that house as normal, but instead of your man appearing at the doorway, you would instead be a flashing target.  You would then move this flashing target around the house, with the only parts visible being what you see from the doorway of the house and what have been seen 'casing' since the house has been modified.  Time would be frozen to the map as it is when designed in build mode.  Areas which you have not seen will be dark or blacked out.  When you find a tile you want to case from you click the 'case' button and the area will become visible as if you were there and stepped into that spot.  I.e. if you chose a tile next to a wall you would have the same visibility as if you were there is person, no magic vision.  If you choose a tile which is a solid wall you will only see that tile alone.

Slowly slowly, people will build up a clear picture of someone's house, and all the accumulated viewings would eventuate in seeing exactly how that trap works.  Casing then also becomes looking at the map of the house and working out the path through.  I think it is a far more creative solution than a little old map and it achieves the same aim in a gamey way.  Of course, one way around this would be to change one square in your house every day, but unless you changed your entire house every day you couldn't actually stop people accessing crucial knowledge about your trap and eventually cracking it.  People could also work together out of the game to piece together how your house looks.

Anyways, I'm off to the club.  Enjoy your time.

Last edited by dalleck (2013-05-10 08:13:46)

The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey


#2 2013-05-13 19:54:56

Registered: 2013-04-18
Posts: 42

Re: An alternative to maps

I like the idea of building your own map rather than being given one.  Your idea would actually add gameplay.  Mr. Rohrer could maybe consider integrating with and/or  if fog of war was implemented.


#3 2013-05-14 13:03:51

Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 12

Re: An alternative to maps

jearr wrote:

I like the idea of building your own map rather than being given one.  Your idea would actually add gameplay.  Mr. Rohrer could maybe consider integrating with and/or  if fog of war was implemented.

I also like the idea of selective information rather than just a "here's the complete map, solve the puzzle", but couldn't think of any way to do it that wouldn't be overly complicated and a nightmare to present to the end user. Not to mention that people could easily still get the full map through nefarious means.

FWIW, I've not done any work on castlr in ages - castlefortify is a far better system - I can't even render tiles properly ;-)


#4 2013-05-15 22:07:22

Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: An alternative to maps

I've thought about this, but I keep stumbling on two issues:

--Cheaters will still be able to get the full map anyway (the only way to prevent map-reveal cheating would involve intractable changes in the client/server relationship.... it would not just entail partial map delivery, because animals and such move even on the parts of the screen that are covered by the fog, so the server would have to simulate everything that you can't see, step-by-step, move-by-move, and THEN deliver you whatever pieces of the map you can see).

--Partial scouting always feels like a slow, grindy means to the same end.  If you keep trying, day-by-day, you will eventually obtain the full map.  Maybe, in some cases, it would be "gameplay" to decide which parts to reveal first, so you wouldn't waste time revealing useless parts.  But in many other cases, it would be trial and error.

Finally, given that NP-hard puzzles are totally possible to build in the game, having the description of a given puzzle (aka, a map) is not a puzzle-killer.  Yes, it pushes puzzle design to the next level.  But I'm really eager for us to move beyond the current level (combo locks and magic dances).


#5 2013-05-17 14:23:51

Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 59

Re: An alternative to maps

This casing idea sounds awesome.  Imagine spending a week casing a house, biding your time for the perfect break in.. 

This kind of break up of the timing is actually interesting in general.. what other tools could have an incremental effect over time?  Maybe something where you can tunnel in from any wall, but only tunnel one tile at a time?

Although yeah, it would have to not come off as "grindy".

Re: connecting with castlefortify:
Just about to release a new update that allows you to import and export maps from the native format of Castle Doctrine.  After that, I will begin work on an API that allows you to interact with the castle fortify data from other applications, getting maps, posting up maps etc. - all in whatever format you desire (CastleDoctrineNative, json, custom text). Really curious to see what is possible once the site is FULLY open like that.. would be cool to see a map from Castle Doctrine be imported and end up in a 3d environment somewhere.

Share castle designs:
Let me know about any Castle Fortify issues here:
Contributing is easy!  Check the readme:
Twitter: @SethArchambault


#6 2013-05-17 19:52:41

Registered: 2013-05-17
Posts: 1

Re: An alternative to maps

I understand that the easiest and fairest way to counter cheaters having access to maps is to give everyone maps. However, with all due respect, I don't think we're going to have much of a game if everyone has access to maps. Consider, what is the most difficult house to analyze with a map? Certainly not a maze. Nor a hall of doors and pitbulls. In theory, the most difficult system is still the combination lock. When you have a map, any maze with buttons that can be pressed reduces to a poorly optimized combination lock. Thus the home owner's best chance is to simply make a high bit count combination lock with stray wires. The goal then isn't to make an impenetrable defense. Just a target not worth the effort. Just like stealing a bike.

So if we want game play that goes beyond reading circuit diagrams (a worthy value in itself), we need to be more creative against the 'real' thieves.

Oh and as it stands, I really enjoy the thematic play in the current version. People accumulate wealth and build an 'impenetrable' fortress. But they're too afraid to get outside and enjoy life (breaking into non trivial houses). Us rich folk have nothing but our paintings and dead wives. It's a bit of existential critique. I get the sense that this isn't Jason's goal but it's a message that I enjoyed non the less and makes me want to continue supporting Jason.


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