Family

Jabloko · 2014-02-20 15:41:17

Guysguysguys!!! I've got it!

I mean, I'm not Jason, and he's probably massively tired of people suggesting things but...what if you COULD put your family behind hazardous objects after all?

Of course, if they end up dying as a result, you would have to live with the consequences, and stare at your dead wife in a trapdoor you built yourself.

You still shouldn't be able to box them in behind walls/pits. An additional script may be added, that they will prefer a non-hazardous path if there is one, but if there isn't they will choose the shortest one, even if it's filled with electric floors.

This would add both more depth and more freedom to the game. If I don't want the family, I can just let them die, and not worry about them later, or I can just safely put them next to the vault.

If I want them dead, they will die very soon anyway, since I have the freedom to put them wherever! So that won't change, but the headache will be gone. Maybe you could choose between being married or non-married when you start, to cut the whole story short?

If you do want to make use of the wife's ability to save half of your cash, you can now build a proper path to protect her instead of a stupid pit-bull phalanx. It would also make it possible for poor players to defend their family, and not force them to choose between a bait for robbers, or safety.

Honestly, I know that I'm not a particular person to be proposing things, but...I don't see why this would not work.

Last edited by Jabloko (2014-02-20 15:45:35)

colorfusion · 2014-02-20 16:06:20

Jabloko wrote:

Guysguysguys!!! I've got it!
I mean, I'm not Jason, and he's probably massively tired of people suggesting things but...what if you COULD put your family behind hazardous objects after all?
Of course, if they end up dying as a result, you would have to live with the consequences, and stare at your dead wife in a trapdoor you built yourself.
You still shouldn't be able to box them in behind walls/pits. An additional script may be added, that they will prefer a non-hazardous path if there is one, but if there isn't they will choose the shortest one, even if it's filled with electric floors.
This would add both more depth and more freedom to the game. If I don't want the family, I can just let them die, and not worry about them later, or I can just safely put them next to the vault.
If I want them dead, they will die very soon anyway, since I have the freedom to put them wherever! So that won't change, but the headache will be gone. Maybe you could choose between being married or non-married when you start, to cut the whole story short?
If you do want to make use of the wife's ability to save half of your cash, you can now build a proper path to protect her instead of a stupid pit-bull phalanx. It would also make it possible for poor players to defend their family, and not force them to choose between a bait for robbers, or safety.
Honestly, I know that I'm not a particular person to be proposing things, but...I don't see why this would not work.

There are quite a few problems:

1. Family members are all counted as tiles, meaning they physically can't move over other tiles without changing how the game works.

2. You could make a house like this and just have it so nobody gets to your family. Even if they get close enough to see them, the son jumps in the pit first and the wife is still safe inside her massive pit fortress.

3. You could easily choose to kill your family to save your trap into a state where it has to be completely brute forced through.

4. This would require ~30 new sprites for all the possibilities of different versions of different family members dying to different causes. Not impossible, just quite a lot of new sprites.

5. Jason wants defending your family to be different to the vault.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-20 16:10:03)

42dustman · 2014-02-20 16:17:42

Jabloko wrote:

42dustman wrote:
More protected than any vault. I'm telling ya.
http://castledraft.com/editor/yBKeOX
Price:23k. How much is she going to be protecting anyway?
Price to break:
1 meat,2 saws, 8 guns, 1 explosive, even if you bought them (and you haven't) at full price, you will end up with 25.000-(100+800+9600+1200)=13830 profit. Not to mention that even if he proceeds for your vault and dies, he will still leave a huge mess behind, overnight, that's the last thing you want to happen.

It's just a concept, not a design for a full home. If you build an house with normal traps in the space that is left it would become practically impossible to kill the wife without engaging the thick of the pitbull army. And you have to relativise the amount of money that it costs because when you're middle class wasting your money is actually a good way to increase your lifespan.

Jabloko · 2014-02-20 16:18:15

colorfusion wrote:

There are quite a few problems:
1. Family members are all counted as tiles, meaning they physically can't move over other tiles without changing how the game works.
2. You could make a house like this and just have it so nobody gets to your family. Even if they get close enough to see them, the son jumps in the pit first and the wife is still safe inside her massive pit fortress.
3. You could easily choose to kill your family to save your trap into a state where it has to be completely brute forced through.
4. This would require ~30 new sprites for all the possibilities of different versions of different family members dying to different causes. Not impossible, just quite a lot of new sprites.
5. Jason wants defending your family to be different to the vault.

1. What about pit bulls? They have no trouble walking over other tiles. I'm sure it wouldn't be a lot of hassle.

2. True, you could, or you could simply not have them to start with. Okay, maybe open trapdoors and pits would also count as blocking.

3. Care to explain? I'm not sure if I understand

4. Not impossible, and it would improve the game.

5. But it suuuuuuuucks... "does the owner has more pit bulls than the robber guns?". It would come down to a tactical choice, if I don't want defending them to be different, why can't I choose otherwise? And again, defending them is only viable if you're rich, unless you are, and I'm repeating myself:
It's expensive
It's unsafe
It's dead obvious for robbers
It's one sided

Last edited by Jabloko (2014-02-20 16:21:12)

colorfusion · 2014-02-20 16:25:17

Jabloko wrote:

colorfusion wrote:
There are quite a few problems:
1. Family members are all counted as tiles, meaning they physically can't move over other tiles without changing how the game works.
2. You could make a house like this and just have it so nobody gets to your family. Even if they get close enough to see them, the son jumps in the pit first and the wife is still safe inside her massive pit fortress.
3. You could easily choose to kill your family to save your trap into a state where it has to be completely brute forced through.
4. This would require ~30 new sprites for all the possibilities of different versions of different family members dying to different causes. Not impossible, just quite a lot of new sprites.
5. Jason wants defending your family to be different to the vault.
1. What about pit bulls? They have no trouble walking over other tiles. I'm sure it wouldn't be a lot of hassle.
2. True, you could, or you could simply not have them to start with. Okay, maybe open trapdoors and pits would also count as blocking.
3. Care to explain? I'm not sure if I understand
4. Not impossible, and it would improve the game.
5. But it suuuuuuuucks... "does the owner has more pit bulls than the robber guns?". It would come down to a tactical choice, if I don't want defending them to be different, why can't I choose otherwise? And again, defending them is only viable if you're rich, unless you are, and I'm repeating myself:
It's expensive
It's unsafe
It's dead obvious for robbers.

1. Pitbulls are not tiles, they're mobiles. The game can only ever have one tile, one mobile, and one player on a single spot. I'm not Jason but I don't think it would be very easy to change.

2. You'd still get the advantage of them having half of your money. If we count trapdoors as blocking, we're pretty much left with electric floors? Even those could be permanently on.

3. When you kill a family member it saves your house in the state that it is in. You have it so a trapdoor only turns on once then kills the dog required to open it, then kills your daughter so it saves in this impossible state intentionally.

4. I think ~30 sprites needs a good justification and a good chance that it would actually improve the game.

5. Same with this really, but changes it from guns to ladders/wire cutters. You can completely defend them from $2000 worth of tools, that's a lot more than you can defend the vault. You don't need to be rich, you do need to make some compromises though.

I do think something needs to be done, but this is a pretty big change which I think will end up for the worse, even if the game is changed quite dramatically to account for it.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-20 16:30:46)

Jabloko · 2014-02-20 16:31:39

What about simply choosing weather or not you want to be married? I'm not married, but I still have some money (not much though, please don't rob me). Why can't there be single guys out there?

Once that happened, we could just see how many players have opted out from having a family, and if it's a lot, than perhaps more change needs to happen, and if it's not so much, than I'll shut my mouth/fingers (until I find something else to whine about, ha!).

Again, if I want them to be gone, they will be gone in a few robberies. I agree that it's arguable weather or not I actually want them, but as far as I can see, not having them is a viable tactical option. So if I choose (and I can) not to have them, they will be put on the doormat. Always. Can I please skip that? It breaks my online heart.

Last edited by Jabloko (2014-02-20 16:35:28)

iceman · 2014-02-20 16:45:46

colorfusion has said what I was going to say, but I'd just like to share a couple of posts where Jason discusses the system (I thought there was a better one, but these will do):

http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 4114#p4114
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 2316#p2316

Jabloko · 2014-02-20 17:55:16

"Also, it's thematically nice to have to design part of your house in a different way to suit the whims of your family (they don't want wires all over the floors in their hallways). It's a natural way of getting you to build a separate "living space" in your house that looks and feels and functions differently from the trap parts of your house."

-Mommy, mommy, why do we have 6x10^23 big, ugly dogs surrounding us?

-This is our separate living space Amber, my dear!

-But mommy, there's doggypoop everywhere!

The "different way" can not be possibly anything else than a pitbull sandwhich. Does he REALLY think it's such an awesome feature to have around?

All I'm asking for is a choice to have them or not (to begin with). If people want pitbull sandwiches, and overnight liabilities, than surely, people will choose them, and I'm stupid.

But if not, than I was right, and people do not like the way the family mechanic currently works.

This game is not realistic from the point where the family is put into a narrow corridor, mommy has a shotgun at hand, and there are 200 pitbulls surrounding them, why pretend than?

colorfusion · 2014-02-20 18:13:08

Jabloko wrote:

"Also, it's thematically nice to have to design part of your house in a different way to suit the whims of your family (they don't want wires all over the floors in their hallways). It's a natural way of getting you to build a separate "living space" in your house that looks and feels and functions differently from the trap parts of your house."
-Mommy, mommy, why do we have 6x10^23 big, ugly dogs surrounding us?
-This is our separate living space Amber, my dear!
-But mommy, there's doggypoop everywhere!
The "different way" can not be possibly anything else than a pitbull sandwhich. Does he REALLY think it's such an awesome feature to have around?
All I'm asking for is a choice to have them or not (to begin with). If people want pitbull sandwiches, and overnight liabilities, than surely, people will choose them, and I'm stupid.
But if not, than I was right, and people do not like the way the family mechanic currently works.
This game is not realistic from the point where the family is put into a narrow corridor, mommy has a shotgun at hand, and there are 200 pitbulls surrounding them, why pretend than?

I don't think anyone's arguing that the family mechanics are perfect as is, but just that there hasn't been a good solution to it yet.

One possible idea is what if perhaps the wife didn't kill you on self test? That would make her a whole lot more valuable in some traps, although it would probably cause a lot of houses where you need a gun even just to get past the entrance. What if she waited for children to exit first, would that perhaps make that more balanced?

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-20 18:13:43)

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-20 19:56:22

Jabloko wrote:

-Mommy, mommy, why do we have 6x10^23 big, ugly dogs surrounding us?

Chem student? A mole of pit bulls???

iceman · 2014-02-20 20:32:36

Here's another idea: what if, in every life, you started with a pitbull? It could be behind your safe to not interfere with the speed of suicide runs, but for people who are trying to build houses it means that you only have to spend 320 on a shotgun for the wife to be able to defend her effectively.

ukuko · 2014-02-21 01:12:56

I like that.

arakira · 2014-02-21 10:03:24

What if you simply *couldn't* live without a family? If you come home and discover that your wife and kids are dead... You're so depressed that you commit suicide. Then the first thing you'd want to protect would be your family. You would even consider putting them in separate rooms to avoid group murders. You would also have the possibility to permadeath your neighbours...

iceman · 2014-02-21 11:21:07

I don't know, arakira... although I like how that would work thematically, I *really* like how you're the only person who can kill yourself in this game. Sure, other players can highly encourage it by robbing you or making a tricky house, but it still comes down to your choice.

Jabloko · 2014-02-21 12:24:33

Even more pitbull stacks? Think of the poor too, please!

Not to mention that it would simply make things even worse. Think of those missions in other games where you have to escort someone entirely harmless and defenceless! Don't you HATE those missions? I do.

You can compare the fact that they usually attack a dragon with bare hands to the theory that defending your family is a task I imagine most people simply doesn't want to bother with. In my last robbery (and I play defensive lately) I stumbled upon another wife on the doormat with $750. By making their defence compulsory, the game would be much worse, as it would shift the focus from the vault to the wife. Which means that everyone would be stacking pitbulls like crazy. You could not afford to protect your vault, cuz' you're so scared to protect your wife. Which would end up in more successful robberies. And since most people have their money's worth in tools, after the vault is broken, you would be pretty much forced to suicide.

Last edited by Jabloko (2014-02-21 12:34:02)

LiteS · 2014-02-25 14:17:01

colorfusion wrote:

Jabloko wrote:
colorfusion wrote:
You can have them completely protected from $2000 worth of cash with ~$700 worth of defences, that's a lot easier than the vault. If you want to go the route of having your wife defended then yes you do need to give up money that you could have used on your vault, but it pays off when you've been robbed but still have a huge sum of cash to repair with.
I think they could be a bit more useful, but it's not too bad. I've had top house twice with my family alive, and they're really useful.
Care to explain how?
Commitment pitbull: 320
Shotgun/another pitbull: 320
Anything decent to protect your vault+walls, wires etc: 1000
Money left for bait: 380...which means no one will ever risk dying in your house.
And I can guarantee, some dick will dodge your wife (in case you're using a shotgun) to club your children on their way out, and we're back to where we're started, your safety is compromised.
You can build something like this:
http://castledraft.com/editor/U5s53D
Edit: http://castledraft.com/editor/L32UgQ
Edit 2: http://castledraft.com/editor/fH67pF
Where it's impossible to kill the wife or kids with $2000 worth of tools (so long as I haven't made any mistakes in that castledraft). With the vault it is always in some way possible, and usually you can find a weakness to exploit. To make it completely impossible to get to your wife and thus defend half of your money from starter tools, this isn't much of a price to pay.
It will be expensive though, you can't easily completely defend your wife, build good defences for your vault, and then still expect to have over $500 left to bait in robbers without ever stepping a foot outside your own house yourself. Part of the game is about when "things are bad" and you have to make some compromises.
I still agree that they should be less of a liability, but I think they can be pretty useful and not too hard to defend.

There's at least one 2k solution to that layout. 2 Saws and a gun. Find it!

colorfusion · 2014-02-25 14:30:09

LiteS wrote:

There's at least one 2k solution to that layout. 2 Saws and a gun. Find it!

Does this fix it?:
http://castledraft.com/editor/VeS4We

The point was more that it's possible to defend your wife completely from $2000 starter tools, the specific example I put together probably has a few flaws.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-25 14:57:06)

Americans17 · 2014-02-25 14:49:33

maybe the family needs an extra value so more people would defend them. Like for every dead family member you carry 1 less space for tools?

Jabloko · 2014-02-25 15:48:33

For the love of god, don't make them even more of a burden! That's my point, I feel them to be dead weight, and by making them even heavier...I would not be happy! I don't want to defend them, allright? I think we have them because it's meant to improve our gaming experience, and your wife supposedly saves half your money. My problem is, that you have to spend half your money PROTECTING her, and she, in the end, will be holding onto QUARTER, or less of your assets. So you're better off just loosing her, and adding more defences to your vault, and keeping the money for bait. It's already very hard to stand up from a fresh start, mandatory pit bull stacks would not make it any easier.

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-25 17:23:45

I have been robbing a number of houses from different price ranges for their paintings and I can tell you that many will be very glad to have had wives - with the amount of money that is currently in the game it is very possible to keep them alive and they can really help when you are robbed. A large number of players are now getting the hang of wife defence and are able to keep their wives alive up into the top houses. So I think the argument that "the wife is useless" and "the wife is too hard to defend" fall down flat. If you feel that the best thing to do is leaving your wife at the door to be killed then go ahead, but it is flying in the face of what most of the experienced players do or recommend.

Jabloko wrote:

I think we have them because it's meant to improve our gaming experience

Well, the point of the wife and kids is a bit more complicated than "improve your gaming experience" - they're there to put you in the position of being the protector of the home and family, to give you something to care about. The reason the wife is given some material value is to encourage this kind of behaviour, even amongst those who see it purely in terms of game mechanics. The hope is that even those players will eventually get attached to their wives and children and desire to protect them as an end in itself.

colorfusion:
I just tried out your design, it turns out the cat doesn't kill itself in time and the dog can be clubbed. Even if you make the cat kill itself properly you there is still a tricky way I have found to club the dog. But yes, the idea still stands that it is definitely possible for under a grand.

Leaf · 2014-02-25 18:51:19

Now that I've lost my family, I can trap people easily in my house.

LiteS · 2014-02-25 19:24:36

colorfusion wrote:

LiteS wrote:
There's at least one 2k solution to that layout. 2 Saws and a gun. Find it!
Does this fix it?:
http://castledraft.com/editor/VeS4We
The point was more that it's possible to defend your wife completely from $2000 starter tools, the specific example I put together probably has a few flaws.

Yeah, that fixes what I found. The trick I came up with was to scare the cat away from the grate and dog, then kill the dog on the grate. Seems like you'll have to find JWG's solution though.

Last edited by LiteS (2014-02-25 19:26:14)

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-25 20:50:36

LiteS wrote:

Yeah, that fixes what I found. The trick I came up with was to scare the cat away from the grate and dog, then kill the dog on the grate. Seems like you'll have to find JWG's solution though.

Well, my solution No.1 at the moment is to walk up, club the dog, shoot the wife.

owl · 2014-02-25 20:51:17

What if, when your wife and children die in the game, your Three Name Character develops an addiction or an expensive, unhealthy hobby? At some regular interval, money is taken from your vault to pay for it.

So, you get the strategic benefit of not having to make a path for your family, but it's balanced out by the money you blow because of your unbearable grief and poor coping skills. (It would be kinda hard to make sane decisions in such an insane environment, right?)

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