Just a few questions

DarkNebula5637 · 2013-04-01 19:35:04

Alright. I have a few questions for Jason and the castle doctrine players

1) Why are combo locks allowed?

2) How are we sopposed to keep our family alive?

3) Why are concrete walls more expensive than steel but easier to destroy?

4) Why do steel and wooden wired walls cost the same?

5) WHY DO PEOPLE KILL THE CHILDREN!

Just some things I've been wondering about. Anyone have any answers?

jasonrohrer · 2013-04-01 21:11:08

1) Why are combo locks allowed?

There's not a good way to forbid them, algorithmically. I originally envisioned that people would figure out how to do this eventually, especially after some players rose to the top and became rich. I didn't realize that it would happen so quickly.

In v6, buyable maps will help robbers deal with these kinds of houses.

2) How are we supposed to keep our family alive?

This is a major weakness in the design of v5. Since they walk ceaselessly toward the door, the door is a pinch-point, and the robber can just wait there (creepy, yeah, but everyone is doing it). Dogs don't help either, because dead dogs block other dogs but not the family.

I'm working on ways to fix this in v6 (probably by having the family pause whenever the robber is close to the front door, and start moving again whenever the robber moves away from the front door).

3) Why are concrete walls more expensive than steel but easier to destroy?

These weren't strictly cost-power design decisions. There was also common sense involved (explosives are cheaper than torches). But also, concrete walls do no conduct electricity, so they are more useful in some situations.

4) Why do steel and wooden wired walls cost the same?

This may need to be looked at again. Especially since so many people are now using steel walls AS wires. That wasn't really my intent, so maybe they will become non-conductive in v6.

5) WHY DO PEOPLE KILL THE CHILDREN!

I'll let them answer for themselves on this one...

rmmh · 2013-04-01 21:52:54

The problem is how little information you get from each run of the map, and how many runs it would take to beat.

For blind combination locks (electric floors activate if you go forward with the wrong combo), it's ~2^(N-1) runs, and for sticky unblinded (you can check if the combo is right as you enter it) it's ~2^(N-3).

I have a 5-bit blind combination lock design that costs $1700.

Do you mean buying a map of someone's entire layout?

A smaller amount of information could be given by better tools. A "magnetic flux reader" that tells you how many cells on the map are powered would give you some information about how a combination lock works as you fiddle with it.

Last edited by rmmh (2013-04-01 21:56:18)

colorfusion · 2013-04-02 03:20:17

rmmh wrote:

The problem is how little information you get from each run of the map, and how many runs it would take to beat.
For blind combination locks (electric floors activate if you go forward with the wrong combo), it's ~2^(N-1) runs, and for sticky unblinded (you can check if the combo is right as you enter it) it's ~2^(N-3).
I have a 5-bit blind combination lock design that costs $1700.
Do you mean buying a map of someone's entire layout?
A smaller amount of information could be given by better tools. A "magnetic flux reader" that tells you how many cells on the map are powered would give you some information about how a combination lock works as you fiddle with it.

I think an easier for users to understand solution to guessing traps would just be a Torch or a Lantern, fairly expensive tool that would light up the entire screen for a few turns.

jasonrohrer · 2013-04-02 07:24:23

You've got a 5-bit lock that costs $1700 and has 9-thick walls protecting it? Yeah, I totally didn't foresee that as being possible. But, you know, players always do amazing things!

The problem with flux readers is that they don't give enough information. Lanterns wouldn't let you see off-screen (so builders would just put the hidden logic far away to thwart lanterns).

The problem with voltage creators (like, a battery that you can attach to something to generate a current) is that they are hard to "attach" to some things. Like, put a battery on a wire, okay. Put a battery on empty floor, okay. But put a battery on a door or on a wall? Players would just design their houses to leave no room for the battery to be attached. Or put electric floors there to auto-kill the player who placed the battery.

Also, I think that batteries would be a bit too powerful. I DO want you to have to think through some houses.

So, the buyable maps fix this. They'll only be available for houses that are rich and no one has yet been able to bypass (like, 50+ deaths or whatever). And, they'll be expensive (like, 25% of house value, maybe). So, they will coax the rich people back out into robbing (because only rich people will be able to afford them) and set a new goal for poor players (become slightly rich in order to take a crack at a top house). The map will only be viewable "offline", in your own house, in a static pan-around mode. You won't be able to walk through it or test it. So, a really good house design can still be tricky, even if you have seen the map. It will then be about designing real puzzles instead of stuff that can be brute-forced.

Toasty_Kabal · 2013-04-02 12:09:52

I've seen two reasons for killing the children. To save the changes to a house you're breaking into and pure frustration.

rmmh · 2013-04-02 12:51:26

My lock relies on electric floors, not thick walls.

Do changes save if you kill a child and then die?

jasonrohrer · 2013-04-02 13:46:44

Wow, your house is amazing! (Just took a peek as admin).

You're right, the off-screen triggered electric floors are much more elegant than 9-thick walls.

Yeah, and I think that this is a perfect example of a house that would still be really fun and interesting to solve with a purchased map. It's not like the map would spoil everything. There would still be a puzzle to solve.

Yes, house state is saved whenever robber kills a family member. That's permanent, and you're going to discover it when you come home, so the house state has to be sensible. For example, they might cut walls to bypass dogs that are guarding the family, in which case you might find the family dead in an seemingly-unreachable location (blocked by dogs?) if the walls were auto-repaired.

SJRH · 2013-04-05 23:44:23

On point 2 I read somewhere (RPS?) that the family only try to leave when they spot the robber - this would be a better solution perhaps... So you can't hang by the door?

vraeden · 2013-04-05 23:59:54

jasonrohrer wrote:

You've got a 5-bit lock that costs $1700 and has 9-thick walls protecting it? Yeah, I totally didn't foresee that as being possible. But, you know, players always do amazing things!
The problem with flux readers is that they don't give enough information. Lanterns wouldn't let you see off-screen (so builders would just put the hidden logic far away to thwart lanterns).
The problem with voltage creators (like, a battery that you can attach to something to generate a current) is that they are hard to "attach" to some things. Like, put a battery on a wire, okay. Put a battery on empty floor, okay. But put a battery on a door or on a wall? Players would just design their houses to leave no room for the battery to be attached. Or put electric floors there to auto-kill the player who placed the battery.
Also, I think that batteries would be a bit too powerful. I DO want you to have to think through some houses.
So, the buyable maps fix this. They'll only be available for houses that are rich and no one has yet been able to bypass (like, 50+ deaths or whatever). And, they'll be expensive (like, 25% of house value, maybe). So, they will coax the rich people back out into robbing (because only rich people will be able to afford them) and set a new goal for poor players (become slightly rich in order to take a crack at a top house). The map will only be viewable "offline", in your own house, in a static pan-around mode. You won't be able to walk through it or test it. So, a really good house design can still be tricky, even if you have seen the map. It will then be about designing real puzzles instead of stuff that can be brute-forced.

As a combo locker (well, recent combo locker. I was originally a single lane electronic boogie woogie man and it was fun watching people going back and forth...); as a combo locker, I'm concerned that maps would reveal circuitry, thereby completely revealing the combination. Anyone with logic can trace the wires to figure out the combo.

vraeden · 2013-04-06 00:07:59

I was thinking...if I were rich, I'd be more motivated to go out to rob big houses IF I could also buy permadeath protection. I don't rob anything that looks like it requires a guess b/c I usually have too much time invested in designing my house, rich or not. Permadeath is severely cramping my risk taking.

Zelacks · 2013-04-06 00:56:45

Pretty sure killing the son does nothing, however killing the daughter causes the damage done to a base to be commited/permanent. So you can effectively get an inventory space of 15 if you quickly burgle the house again, which is pretty blatant advantage.

Madeus · 2013-04-06 01:34:24

jasonrohrer wrote:

1) Why are combo locks allowed?
There's not a good way to forbid them, algorithmically. I originally envisioned that people would figure out how to do this eventually, especially after some players rose to the top and became rich. I didn't realize that it would happen so quickly.
In v6, buyable maps will help robbers deal with these kinds of houses.

I'm not sure I like buyable maps:

I agree that combination locks are cheap and no fun to crack; I've tried. One of my first attempts at making a house included a nasty 16-bit sticky-switch combination lock with pitbull traps. Not as impressive as this Matthew Waters' house, but it would have been practically impossible to break into. In the end, someone cheated to rob my vault and I forgot to reposition my pets when I tested it to check the footage and lost it all... (what an idiot!)

However, this encouraged me to try something different and now I have an electric floor-based maze-like trap which is much more interesting, if technically easier to break into, and I'm happier with it. I've had over a hundred people dying in attempts to break in, but very few have managed to get close. (One managed to get quite close, but they gave up for some reason.)

My point is that I don't think people have had a good enough try at beating my house yet and being able to see a map would spoil it. Also, if I have a clever idea for something, I don't want people to learn my secrets. I think people should figure it out for themselves. I feel quite protective about my security systems, and maps seem like a violation.

If map buying makes it into v6, at least I hope people won't be able to look at maps unless the owner of the house has a lot of money. If it is based on how many deaths have occurred, people could artificially bump up the death count by dying quickly to force a map to be made available - though I guess they would have enough money to buy it!

Instead of automatically making maps available based on some fixed criteria, perhaps players could petition for a house map to be made available if it appears to be unbeatable by practical means? If enough people petition, and Jason thinks it's fair, a purchasable map could be made available.

Last edited by Madeus (2013-04-06 01:38:01)

votekick · 2013-04-06 02:49:01

jasonrohrer wrote:

2) How are we supposed to keep our family alive?
This is a major weakness in the design of v5. Since they walk ceaselessly toward the door, the door is a pinch-point, and the robber can just wait there (creepy, yeah, but everyone is doing it). Dogs don't help either, because dead dogs block other dogs but not the family.
I'm working on ways to fix this in v6 (probably by having the family pause whenever the robber is close to the front door, and start moving again whenever the robber moves away from the front door).

I like the idea about being able to give your wife a crowbar. Then if the player blocks her path she then clubs him.

jasonrohrer wrote:

5) WHY DO PEOPLE KILL THE CHILDREN!
I'll let them answer for themselves on this one...

I also like the idea of the children being lives. When you die in someones house at the cost of a child so that your house stays standing, so you don't completely start over but it gives purpose to the children.... Perhaps there needs to be a money penalty associated with this. It also gives us a reason to club the children (other than trolling that is).
Speaking of which we should be able to move corpses just so we can make shrines in the dead center of the house...

Wyld Stallyn · 2013-04-06 03:44:23

I once killed the children of a household because the starting trap annoyed me so much that I felt the need to punish him. I hope he doesn't manage to wiggle his way around that one. *evil cackle*

vraeden wrote:

I was thinking...if I were rich, I'd be more motivated to go out to rob big houses IF I could also buy permadeath protection. I don't rob anything that looks like it requires a guess b/c I usually have too much time invested in designing my house, rich or not. Permadeath is severely cramping my risk taking.

My proposed solution instead would be more starting money so you could have more fun with more elaborate traps right off the bat, making a loss less severe.That "rich can buy permadeath protection"-idea is just going to turn into a pointless moneysink because you'll die in the rich's impenetrable fortresses anyway, again and again and again. Then no one is rich anymore (well okay, the top 5 most impenetrable fortresses will be) and everyone sinks back into Sleeping Beauty mode.

Last edited by Wyld Stallyn (2013-04-06 03:53:22)

Raisane · 2013-04-06 04:41:38

about this map thing, i think it should be outside of the permanent dead rule. i think it should be a map you have to fill in yourself (by walking over the square / it being in your vision) by countless times dying. the map should be 200-500$ and you have to rebuy it every time you lose it (but it will still contain the information of your previous runs).

colorfusion · 2013-04-06 04:44:55

Raisane wrote:

about this map thing, i think it should be outside of the permanent dead rule. i think it should be a map you have to fill in yourself (by walking over the square / it being in your vision) by countless times dying. the map should be 200-500$ and you have to rebuy it every time you lose it (but it will still contain the information of your previous runs).

I think the point of the map is mainly for guessing-puzzles that have thousands of combinations which you normally can't get to the circuitry of.

We could just note down where we've been in a house if we wanted; an expensive item for where we've stepped would not really be that useful.

IMO the map that Jason is planning should cost at least $2001, just so people have to earn a bit of money before seeing everything in a popular house.

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-04-06 05:17:26)

edwardoka · 2013-04-06 04:53:48

Regarding maps, I think that
a) providing an outright, complete map of a level is a poor idea that would break the game.
b) If you scout a location and leave, you should be able to look at a map fragment of the area that you discovered, combined with those of any previous visits.
c) You would be able to put these map fragments up for auction/sale against the house in question, with the option of combining your map fragments with other people's map fragments.
d) The map fragments would have a date against them, and they would reflect the house at the time they were created. They would NOT reflect changes to the layout.

This would give the home owner an incentive to semi-regularly visit their house (to change things around to obsolete those map fragments).
In addition to allowing another way of earning money (by scouting and selling intelligence on the marketplace), it would also provide the home owner the ability to feed misinformation by making subtle changes to their layout after a key component of their design has been mapped.

What do you think?

Cheers
Ed

colorfusion · 2013-04-06 05:16:24

edwardoka wrote:

Regarding maps, I think that
a) providing an outright, complete map of a level is a poor idea that would break the game.
b) If you scout a location and leave, you should be able to look at a map fragment of the area that you discovered, combined with those of any previous visits.
c) You would be able to put these map fragments up for auction/sale against the house in question, with the option of combining your map fragments with other people's map fragments.
d) The map fragments would have a date against them, and they would reflect the house at the time they were created. They would NOT reflect changes to the layout.
This would give the home owner an incentive to semi-regularly visit their house (to change things around to obsolete those map fragments).
In addition to allowing another way of earning money (by scouting and selling intelligence on the marketplace), it would also provide the home owner the ability to feed misinformation by making subtle changes to their layout after a key component of their design has been mapped.
What do you think?
Cheers
Ed

This would probably badly hit actual puzzle houses but leave combo-locks/electric-mazes as unsolvable as they are now, which is kind of the exact opposite of what I think he's trying to make the item do.

Your whole fragmented partial map system seems a little too complicated and strange, I think an expensive full map would work better. Also selling and buying probably wouldn't work that well; if people did a lot of work then they're likely to finish it off and claim the house prize, if people haven't done much work then people wouldn't buy the map because they could just do it themselves.

As a separate thing that could work perhaps, like in some other roguelikes, areas that you've already seen but can't see at the moment are slightly darker but still visible.

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-04-06 05:19:35)

Raisane · 2013-04-06 05:17:51

^ i agree with that

but there is 1 point which might make it harder. you say there'll be a map auction, i think this should be combined with other stuff like:
-you can only buy maps of rooms you've died at least five times in
-the owner of the room that has 100+ people dying in that single room will get an item which can help with robberies, these items can also be put on auction
-you must have 5 people who have died in your room before you can go mapping (because otherwise you create a room without defense, go out mapping and you get money)
-there is an auction fee, so people can't just exchange money between them without paying a fee.
-the owner of the room sees the maps of his room in a green light, he can buy them, but only if the person who put it on auction agrees that the owner can buy the map.
-if the person holding a map dies by a pitbull, the map will go away, if he dies by something like an electric floor, the owner can take the map (and maybe sell it a week later, after he adjusted his room) to both make money and fool people at the same time.

i have to note that these are all random ideas and aren't one unity.

colorfusion · 2013-04-06 05:21:36

Raisane wrote:

^ i agree with that
but there is 1 point which might make it harder. you say there'll be a map auction, i think this should be combined with other stuff like:
-you can only buy maps of rooms you've died at least five times in
-the owner of the room that has 100+ people dying in that single room will get an item which can help with robberies, these items can also be put on auction
-you must have 5 people who have died in your room before you can go mapping (because otherwise you create a room without defense, go out mapping and you get money)
-there is an auction fee, so people can't just exchange money between them without paying a fee.
-the owner of the room sees the maps of his room in a green light, he can buy them, but only if the person who put it on auction agrees that the owner can buy the map.
-if the person holding a map dies by a pitbull, the map will go away, if he dies by something like an electric floor, the owner can take the map (and maybe sell it a week later, after he adjusted his room) to both make money and fool people at the same time.
i have to note that these are all random ideas and aren't one unity.

That just seems like a mess of random rules to remember and I don't really see how it would solve the original problem TBH.

vraeden · 2013-04-06 05:48:50

Wyld Stallyn wrote:

I once killed the children of a household because the starting trap annoyed me so much that I felt the need to punish him. I hope he doesn't manage to wiggle his way around that one. *evil cackle*
vraeden wrote:
I was thinking...if I were rich, I'd be more motivated to go out to rob big houses IF I could also buy permadeath protection. I don't rob anything that looks like it requires a guess b/c I usually have too much time invested in designing my house, rich or not. Permadeath is severely cramping my risk taking.
My proposed solution instead would be more starting money so you could have more fun with more elaborate traps right off the bat, making a loss less severe.That "rich can buy permadeath protection"-idea is just going to turn into a pointless moneysink because you'll die in the rich's impenetrable fortresses anyway, again and again and again. Then no one is rich anymore (well okay, the top 5 most impenetrable fortresses will be) and everyone sinks back into Sleeping Beauty mode.

I don't think we should worry too much about the rich staying rich. I didn't propose a full solution of removing permadeath; I'm suggesting something that both rewards the rich for trying by lessening the blow. Like, only lose half your money and have to rebuild, or only lose your money but not your house, since it appears that only your liquidated money puts you at the top of the leaderboard. Make it costly enough that you won't just be buying permadeath protection with every attempt. The rich get rich the same way as everyone else, robbing houses. The combo locks should not be earning that much money from tools...you see a combo lock, turn the other way! I design my combo lock vault and then rob super easy looking houses. First sign of trouble, I turn tail and run. Only the houses that LOOK solvable should get attempted multiple times.

In addition to lessoning the blow for permadeath when you buy such protection, I'm more okay with partial maps than full maps. It would be a lot more like buying a blueprint from someone---either it's from someone who has explored or it's from the permit office (and I wouldn't tell the permit office the truth about my vault, now would I?).

I say this after having lost my entire house and 50k when I was about 3 on the leaderboard and having taken just 3 days to climb back to number 2 or 3 (don't know my name yet) with 25k. (I'm not Waters). It is doable...but I ain't trying to rob Keister or Waters either. Don't you think that it would be worth half my fortune for me to get a decent attempt on their house?

Last edited by vraeden (2013-04-06 05:51:28)

edwardoka · 2013-04-06 06:12:57

colorfusion wrote:

This would probably badly hit actual puzzle houses but leave combo-locks/electric-mazes as unsolvable as they are now, which is kind of the exact opposite of what I think he's trying to make the item do.
Your whole fragmented partial map system seems a little too complicated and strange, I think an expensive full map would work better. Also selling and buying probably wouldn't work that well; if people did a lot of work then they're likely to finish it off and claim the house prize, if people haven't done much work then people wouldn't buy the map because they could just do it themselves.

I've not really described the system I envisaged very well. It's complicated to describe (and, I daresay, complicated to implement) but would be quite simple in use.

The rationale behind it is like in the game Thief, when you are on a mission, you get a map of the place you're breaking into, but the map is usually sketchy and incomplete, based upon intelligence gathered from servants or the like, often times conflicting.

While a full map could potentially be available on the marketplace, it should be at much higher cost than stated elsewhere - as high as 75% of the house value - and shouldn't be a "live" view of the house.

Imagine the following scenario:

Player A visits House X with some tools, cuts through some likely looking walls, kills a couple of pitbulls and goes for a wander around the innards, automapping as they go. They then encounter something they can't deal with, so they leave.
They haven't got enough money to have another crack at it, so as their information is now useless, they offer their intel on the marketplace for a price (either determined by them, or calculated as a percentage of the house value divided by how much of the map was not already available. ie. rarity of the info)

Player B buys the map from Player A (either outright... ie. the map is no longer available for sale, or a copy... ie. the original remains available for sale, I'm not sure which would be better), and, forewarned by the map of Player A's runthrough, player B now visits House X with the tools required to bypass the obstruction that Player A couldn't get past. Player B then hits another obstruction that they can't pass, so they leave.

Depending upon how the buying was implemented, then one of the two following things can happen:
If they bought it outright, they can sell the combination of their map and Player A's map, with the same price calculation as above (with the various ages of the different sections highlighted by a colour coding or similar - see below examples)

If they bought a copy of the map, they can only sell those portions of the level that was mapped by themselves.

Player C buys a combination of Player A and Player B's map, has a playthrough, reveals another big area by cutting through some walls, and then leaves.
Through iteration, the map is gradually revealed.

Examples of combination of maps with colour coded "information age":
Player A puts his map on the market, and it looks like this so people can see what they're buying: http://i.imgur.com/0FwfN4y.png
Player B puts his combined map on the market, and it looks like: http://i.imgur.com/n1WUMrw.png
Player C puts his combined map on the market, and it looks like: http://i.imgur.com/Ta2he6K.png

colorfusion wrote:

As a separate thing that could work perhaps, like in some other roguelikes, areas that you've already seen but can't see at the moment are slightly darker but still visible.

Yeah, I like this idea too.

Wyld Stallyn · 2013-04-06 06:36:54

vraeden wrote:

I don't think we should worry too much about the rich staying rich. I didn't propose a full solution of removing permadeath; I'm suggesting something that both rewards the rich for trying by lessening the blow. Like, only lose half your money and have to rebuild, or only lose your money but not your house, since it appears that only your liquidated money puts you at the top of the leaderboard. Make it costly enough that you won't just be buying permadeath protection with every attempt. The rich get rich the same way as everyone else, robbing houses. The combo locks should not be earning that much money from tools...you see a combo lock, turn the other way! I design my combo lock vault and then rob super easy looking houses. First sign of trouble, I turn tail and run. Only the houses that LOOK solvable should get attempted multiple times.
In addition to lessoning the blow for permadeath when you buy such protection, I'm more okay with partial maps than full maps. It would be a lot more like buying a blueprint from someone---either it's from someone who has explored or it's from the permit office (and I wouldn't tell the permit office the truth about my vault, now would I?).
I say this after having lost my entire house and 50k when I was about 3 on the leaderboard and having taken just 3 days to climb back to number 2 or 3 (don't know my name yet) with 25k. (I'm not Waters). It is doable...but I ain't trying to rob Keister or Waters either. Don't you think that it would be worth half my fortune for me to get a decent attempt on their house?

Ah yes, that is quite different from what went through my mind.

Though additionally I would say my idea was really bad. Because making a death even less costly means people are even more likely to just go on a brute force retry spree.

I don't think you really can balance this game. The only way I could think of is if there was a set amount of money everyone has available for their dungeon, altogether remove the moneymaking mechanic and instead incentivise robbery with something else, like unlocks after a certain number of successful robberies or whatever. I really don't know.

Last edited by Wyld Stallyn (2013-04-06 08:01:16)

jasonrohrer · 2013-04-08 22:37:56

As far as buyable maps breaking the game, the idea is to have them be REALLY expensive.... something to shoot for, and only affordable after you become rich. Maybe $10K or $20K, plus some fraction of the target house's value.

So, you have to be rich to buy one, which means you have a lot to lose if you fail to understand the map perfectly.

This is a way to tempt the rich back into playing the robbing game, and make the rich vulnerable to robbers again (even if they have 24-bit combination locks protected by 9-thick walls).

This will also lessen the value of simple combo locks. You will need to design a house that is tricky to understand EVEN if you have a map of it (which is more interesting).

But, you know, for the small-fry who has $5000 in their house.... who is going to pay $10K to get a map of your house? No one!

Also, the map will be fixed at the time you buy it, and may fall out-of-date with the owner's house, as the owner changes it. This will give the rich incentive to change their houses, which will put themselves at risk (having to self-test a changing house). And, once you buy a map, you will RUSH to understand it before the owner has a chance to change the house, which means you will be taking a bigger risk, not fully understanding the map, etc.

The wife and kids standing still until they see the robber is a good idea! You're right that the RPS guy mistakenly reported it working this way.

The wife and kids serving as extra backup lives is a really good idea.... would be really cool to "take over" one of them, and see them dressed in robber clothes (Dad's dead, Emma, so it's up to you to go out robbing now). Could add drama as your lives dwindle. Though I worry that it is an extra, necessary layer.... I try to keep my designs as simple as possible. Also, insta-death is really dramatic already.

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#24 2013-04-06 06:36:54

Re: Just a few questions

#25 2013-04-08 22:37:56

Re: Just a few questions

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