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#26 2014-04-06 01:46:47

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

I neither supported nor condemned it, as you say I have. I did however take up the devil's advocate position because frankly, after many times of saying "I haven't seen anything to support your arguments" in several other threads, nor a clearly stated "how is this really different from a group of players working together" until recently.

Also, in context, I had seen that post before, though in my quirky interpretation of things, I took it to mean that the steps taken (chills, etc) were considered to already address the issue, but no further determination was really made.

But really, remember folks, if you present a point that you know not everyone shares, don't be surprised if you find it becoming argumentative when you lump everyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint, into the opposing camp simply because they don't share that viewpoint.

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#27 2014-04-06 02:25:20

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@Nakula, you are right.  However, part of the reason for that is that many of the people condoning dual accounts are the vocal players on this forum.  If we all voice together against dual account abuse, then perhaps Jason will take notice.  However, as long as we squabble amongst ourselves, nothing will change and the game will slowly sink to the ground.

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#28 2014-04-06 02:52:07

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Jason apparently also uses dual accounts, because he states the same as we do. Even lately he responded to similar thing:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, I'm not so worried about the above scenario, because it still requires SKILL in defeating the C, D, and E houses which are not colluding with A and B.  The method you describe involves exercising skill, and skimming a little bit of extra money out of that skill (the bounty) than would otherwise be possible.  But to skim more money (from D or E's house) requires more skill to be applied, and more risk too.

All of my effort has gone into any skill-free and risk-free method of making unbounded money in the game.  Like, ways that A and B could go back and forth with each other, without skill or risk, and build up lots of money.

You could say, "Yeah, but, what if C, D, and E are in on it?"  I think the difficulty of operating a collusion pool grows super-linearly with the size of that pool.  Or even if you're operating N fake accounts yourself, that still costs N times as much money as one account...

Right now, the only way to gain an unbounded amount of money in the game without skill is:

1.  Collude with an unbounded number of other people.

2.  Wait for an unbounded amount of time (for chills to wear off, etc.)

Or at least, it should be that way...  I'm looking for loopholes that violate this assumption.

I promise you to never ever reply to a thread like this. I will never ever make a single comment about dual accounts. I have already said that I don't use second account to gain advantage. Maybe you can buy second account and write a story about how super uber ruler your are after that.
It is logical that people with 1 account know better than people with 2 accounts that 2 accounts are evil!
Maybe if you would try to you would find out that Jason already commented about this more times... hm.. probably no. This will never stop. So enjoy it. My last post about dual accounts.

EDIT: to add - I have gone through all the ways I could exploit my 2 accounts in several posts before. But it doesn't matter, because 1 week later there will be another player claiming the same as you and other people. What is actually killing the game is that you make problem from something that is actually not a problem. People are leaving because you tell them that this game is full of cheaters and it is not possible to play it standard way. That is why I responded to most of the posts, because those are the things that hurt the game. I agreed that dual accounts give you advantage, but they are not as big problem as you say. As far as I know there is no solution - if you have one go ahead and suggest it - Jason responds to suggestions. Nobody has come up with solution, because there is none. Unfortunately most people won't understand why. First clue for you is to imagine that everyone can create as many accounts as they want (for example on free server) - how do you solve it?

EDIT2: I think some sticky post from Jason regarding this would help to already stop this repeating every other day.

EDIT3: I realized that you think that I support it - that is not true. I have 2 accounts because I didn't want to die with my main account when I had good house, but I wanted to play so I bought second account. Cheating with multiple accounts is not part of the game and I don't support it.
There is however no way to stop it and Jason did everything he could to reduce the possibilities. What I say is that it is not as big problem after the precautions that Jason has made. I didn't find it game breaking when someone with 2 accounts scouts my house or robs me (I even encourage you if you have 2 accounts to show me how will you ruin my game). I don't think it is game breaking for any of you.

Last edited by MMaster (2014-04-06 03:37:21)


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#29 2014-04-06 03:05:01

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

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#30 2014-04-06 06:04:10

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@MMaster

First: Jason's motives are clearly different to dual account users.  He has a financial gain from every player who buys two accounts.

Now, onto your more serious points:
You feel personally attacked.  If you read my first post again, I said that from your posts you come across as an advocate of dual accounts and probably have two accounts.  From your response, this was correct.  This in itself is not a bad thing.  However, the problem comes from users who do abuse that second account to cheat.  Specifically, those who cheat at the expense of others.

When my account was robbed by a dual account user, I was sleeping.  I left my relatively new account overnight and woke up to find it was robbed.  On tape inspection, it was robbed by a dual account user (currently under the name Craig Jason Phillips).  Phillips used 2k of tools from one account but got caught in my final trap.  He then used his second account, brought the exact tools needed and reached my vault with his main account.  With only one account, he wouldn't have been able to do this for 24 hours.  Time in which I would have further developed my castle and he would have had to start again.

As such, with my castle broken and no funds to build it back up, I had little choice but to start again (no second account to cheat 2k into my account).  Hence, the cheater with 2 accounts directly forced me to restart in a way that only a 2 account holder could.

This story has been repeated by many forum users but the regular posters call it nothing.

Benefits of 2 accounts over 1:
1.Start with up to 6.1k instead of 2k.
2.Instant 2k boost if your main vault is reached.
3.Freedom of 2k scouting missions with no need for a route back.
4.Two attacks on any house without consequence the first time.

I'm sure there are more, but these are off the top of my head.


Solution to 2 account cheaters:
There are many solutions and lots have been suggested on the forums already.  They either receive no reply or are shot down.

A. Block visibility of players with the same IP as you.  This would stop benefits 1. and 2. instantly.
B. Monitor suspected cheats.  If a player can show a video of a suspected cheat and that player is one of two with the same IP, give them punishment X.  This would solve benefit 4, when spotted.
C. Ban all players with multiple accounts (giving those with two accounts to ditch one of them).  This would solve all benefits, but obviously would cause friction within the community in the short term.

A. is an obvious one to implement.  It would be easy and reduce invisible cheating.
B. is tougher and requires maintenance but if the game is to grow, it is needed.
C. would be a last resort, although I'd call it too extreme.

You will notice that the recommended solutions don't impact upon benefit 3, the only honest use of a second account that I can see which you specified as your reason for having two accounts:

"I realized that you think that I support it - that is not true. I have 2 accounts because I didn't want to die with my main account when I had good house, but I wanted to play so I bought second account."

Also, on this same quote, please read my last point on my first post.  I added you to the list after your comments here: http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2421

As with all of the forum members on the list, I am not accusing you of cheating, but advocating multiple accounts.

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#31 2014-04-06 06:35:59

gyuri
Member
Registered: 2013-07-09
Posts: 231

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

I haven't read everything, but I've seen my name mentioned and I want to set things straight.

I've never said dual accounting is a good thing, I said it's not a big problem in my opinion. In fact since I said that, I experienced dual account cheating on the Fortress Theory Mod which made me quit, but it's a big difference feeding yourself with 2k every 5 minutes on a game with 5 active users compared to the large player base of TCD.

I still think all the discussion made the problem much worse, there might be a lot of players now who became aware of the possibility and all the advantages through this forum. Yes it's cheating and if it affects a lot of people, it's a problem as well.

I think Jason will react when he has an idea for a solution. The stupidest thing one can do is to quit for good, because the game is just a lot better with a large player base. As long as there are a lot of people playing fair, the cheaters will always be a minority.

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#32 2014-04-06 06:46:19

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

The reality is, the board seems more pro cheating than anti.  Right now I've seen 2-3 people that are anti-cheating/think it's a big deal, where a lot of the boards biggest posters/users are clearly dual account users, or don't think it's worth discussing/fixing.   People can say it's our fault to for bringing it up, but that's what this board is for, no?  Also, if I was to come into this game cold and read the boards I would see that most of the top house owners are dual accounters and think that is what is required to play this game at a high level.

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#33 2014-04-06 07:30:15

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Let me break my promise about last post just to not leave your comments unreplied:

AMWhy wrote:

@MMaster
First: Jason's motives are clearly different to dual account users.  He has a financial gain from every player who buys two accounts.

Jason does not want any money from this game - game is open source and you don't need to pay for it - you pay for access to main server.

AMWhy wrote:

Now, onto your more serious points:
You feel personally attacked.  If you read my first post again, I said that from your posts you come across as an advocate of dual accounts and probably have two accounts.  From your response, this was correct.  This in itself is not a bad thing.  However, the problem comes from users who do abuse that second account to cheat.  Specifically, those who cheat at the expense of others.

I don't feel attacked - I feel that it does not make sense to have an argument about this anymore, because it does not lead anywhere. I feel sad, because as usual people that don't have 2 accounts KNOW how it is good and overpowered to have 2 accounts without ever trying it.

AMWhy wrote:

When my account was robbed by a dual account user, I was sleeping.  I left my relatively new account overnight and woke up to find it was robbed.  On tape inspection, it was robbed by a dual account user (currently under the name Craig Jason Phillips).  Phillips used 2k of tools from one account but got caught in my final trap.  He then used his second account, brought the exact tools needed and reached my vault with his main account.  With only one account, he wouldn't have been able to do this for 24 hours.  Time in which I would have further developed my castle and he would have had to start again.

Your house could as well be robbed by someone with single account. Even if it wasn't it could have been so this did not change your game in any way.

AMWhy wrote:

As such, with my castle broken and no funds to build it back up, I had little choice but to start again (no second account to cheat 2k into my account).  Hence, the cheater with 2 accounts directly forced me to restart in a way that only a 2 account holder could.

I have two accounts and my main account has been robbed 2 times - I didn't use second account to come back! I have robbed other people for a few bucks to fix my house. So he didn't force you to restart in a way ONLY 2 account holder could.

AMWhy wrote:

This story has been repeated by many forum users but the regular posters call it nothing.

Benefits of 2 accounts over 1:
1.Start with up to 6.1k instead of 2k.
2.Instant 2k boost if your main vault is reached.
3.Freedom of 2k scouting missions with no need for a route back.
4.Two attacks on any house without consequence the first time.

I'm sure there are more, but these are off the top of my head.

Yes. And I don't care - it's only saving up their time - it's not breaking the game of others in any big way and that's why I don't care. As I already mentioned in other thread - it's like paying for new hero with real money instead of playing for a month to buy it for in-game points.

AMWhy wrote:

Solution to 2 account cheaters:
There are many solutions and lots have been suggested on the forums already.  They either receive no reply or are shot down.

A. Block visibility of players with the same IP as you.  This would stop benefits 1. and 2. instantly.

This would also stop users that share the same IP (e.g. on campus) and are not related at all. It is also very easily circumvented by using VPN/TOR so developing it has no actual benefit.

AMWhy wrote:

B. Monitor suspected cheats.  If a player can show a video of a suspected cheat and that player is one of two with the same IP, give them punishment X.  This would solve benefit 4, when spotted.

Implementing an AI that would automatically find some patterns is hard - automatically assuming that someone is cheating because he has the same IP as the user before is not a way to go. Real human would need to monitor it and that is really time consuming work to do and therefore also money consuming.

AMWhy wrote:

C. Ban all players with multiple accounts (giving those with two accounts to ditch one of them).  This would solve all benefits, but obviously would cause friction within the community in the short term.

You can't pair multiple accounts to single person easily. Having the same IP does not mean it's single person. There are people that play with their family members in the same house. And it can still be circumvented by using VPN/TOR as I already mentioned.

AMWhy wrote:

You will notice that the recommended solutions don't impact upon benefit 3, the only honest use of a second account that I can see which you specified as your reason for having two accounts:

"I realized that you think that I support it - that is not true. I have 2 accounts because I didn't want to die with my main account when I had good house, but I wanted to play so I bought second account."

You will notice that your solutions would not stop multiple account use and/or put restrictions on regular users that don't cheat. You can still have friend that plays castle doctrine and doesn't have the same IP or even live in the same country that can tell you how to pass my house.

AMWhy wrote:

Also, on this same quote, please read my last point on my first post.  I added you to the list after your comments here: http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2421

As with all of the forum members on the list, I am not accusing you of cheating, but advocating multiple accounts.

I understand that and I'm sorry if my reply was too harsh - I'm just quite fed up with this multi account non-sense going on on the forums. Even the russian spammers were more creative and each post contained different movie. I really don't want to look like a douche-bag (I probably already do), but this is getting too ridiculous and I can imagine better spent time than replying to the same thing over and over.
I'm happy about that "king of the castle doctrine" post because otherwise recently it looks like everything on the forums is going on around dual accounts.


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#34 2014-04-06 07:48:18

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

MMaster you only arguing against using IPs.  I don't think IPs is the right way.  There are a number of ways to fix this.  Maybe the easiest is to generate a 3 word key for each users license key and show it on tapes.  If users are suspicious there is cheating, they can see if the same accounts are benefitting each other. If you can show that 2 accounts are helping each over and over you report that to Jason.  That would fix it in 2 weeks.

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#35 2014-04-06 07:54:51

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

May I please clear one thing up? Dual accounts are not cheating. Here's why:

cheating - to violate rules or regulations (that's the dictionary definition).

Video games are nice because they have very set-in-stone, nearly unbreakable, rules, unlike, say, cards, where cheating is easy. The Castle Doctrine has some very well-enforced rules; for example, stepping on a deadly tiles kills you. There's no way around it. There are no rules that prevent dual accounts, and thus it is not cheating.
If I was an "advocate of cheating", I wouldn't be wasting my time with two accounts, and just write a full map view client and wipe the list clean.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#36 2014-04-06 07:59:06

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Blip wrote:

If I was an "advocate of cheating", I wouldn't be wasting my time with two accounts, and just write a full map view client and wipe the list clean.

This! Exactly. It would be just copy-paste of mapShot code! But I simply trust that nobody does that.


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#37 2014-04-06 08:01:55

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

cullman wrote:

MMaster you only arguing against using IPs.  I don't think IPs is the right way.  There are a number of ways to fix this.  Maybe the easiest is to generate a 3 word key for each users license key and show it on tapes.  If users are suspicious there is cheating, they can see if the same accounts are benefitting each other. If you can show that 2 accounts are helping each over and over you report that to Jason.  That would fix it in 2 weeks.

I argue with what was said in the suggestions. Nobody has suggested what you did. Yes you are right but it would also expose the person behind the character name (partially) and afaik Jason does not want to do that as it would change the game quite a lot.


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#38 2014-04-06 08:02:55

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@MMaster If you can tell me how a single account user can die in a house to a trap then rob it again within a couple of hours, I'll stop talking.

Please read Solution A again. It doesn't stop players having multiple accounts and it doesn't stop users with the same IP address playing.  It merely stops players with the same IP address from seeing each other.  You're right, this can be circumnavigated through VPN and the like, but this would at least add more cost and hassle to those wanting to cheat with their second account and act as a deterrent.

Solution B WOULD involve cost on Jason's part and if he wants the game to continue long term, that's what it will take.

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#39 2014-04-06 08:20:39

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Okay. I'll give you this: alts are useful. Without it I couldn't have robbed crazyace, as my previous alt scouts were what saved me.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#40 2014-04-06 08:22:22

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

@MMaster If you can tell me how a single account user can die in a house to a trap then rob it again within a couple of hours, I'll stop talking.

You don't understand my point - there is no difference to YOU if one person comes to your house and robs it without using second account or uses second account to rob it. The outcome is the same. It does not change your game in any way - the only thing is that you can be jealous that you can't do it too, because you can't afford second account.

AMWhy wrote:

Please read Solution A again. It doesn't stop players having multiple accounts and it doesn't stop users with the same IP address playing.  It merely stops players with the same IP address from seeing each other.  You're right, this can be circumnavigated through VPN and the like, but this would at least add more cost and hassle to those wanting to cheat with their second account and act as a deterrent.

Solution B WOULD involve cost on Jason's part and if he wants the game to continue long term, that's what it will take.

I have read that solution A and VPN/TOR/proxy is really easy to setup and if someone wants to cheat they would simply use it to circumvent the protection and these posts would still repeat on the forum. So it's not really a solution.

I still don't get how it ruins your game and why would the game not continue long term even without solution B. I've seen many posts where people tell Jason how his game is going to end and how it is going to lose all players because of that and that and that. The game exists for much longer time than you even knew about it and it still exists.
Jason knows how many people stopped playing and how many people are still coming - I believe that if something would cause the game to lose players Jason would try to address it somehow asap as he did for several issues before.

I suggest to ask Jason what he thinks about it so he wraps it up once and for all. We are just community members playing the game so everyone will just assume that we want to "win" the game by cheating because we say that 2 accounts are not overpowered.


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#41 2014-04-06 08:34:19

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Clearly, I have been thinking about this a lot.  I have a solution that would solve this issue purely with technology, no human interaction, and would not impact fair playing players.  Nor would it impact people with two accounts who are not using them in a dishonest/cheating way.

Anytime tools are bought the user's license key is store along with that particular tool.  Anytime, bounty is generated it is too associated with the original license key.  So for simplicity sake let's say I have 2 accounts that I am using to cheat, with simplified license keys 1, and 2. Account 1 builds a house, and spends all $2000 doing it.  Account #2 goes and robs User 1s house perfectly pumping it's bounty.  In the meantime an unrelated user (call it account 3) goes into Account #1s house and dies leaving a bounty, a second unrelated account (account 4) goes in with a  single meat and dies as well also leaving a bounty.  Now account 2 goes and buys 5 saws and goes in to account #1 house and dies.  Here would be the data representation of the money and tools associated with Account #1's house/account :
In aggregate and to the end user it would look like he has $1300 in cash, 5 saws, and 1 dog meat, or in total value $2400
Under the hood it would look like this :
$1100 - originating from account #2
$100 - originating from account #3
$100 - originating from account #4
5 saws/$1000 - originating from account #2
1 dog meat originating form account #4

Now the server does a check.  This house is worth $2400, $2100 or 87% of it coming from account #2.  Now all the server does is this analysis and does a bidirectional force ignore between the two accounts of something like 6 hours for every 10% of wealth represented by the second account.  In this case the 2 accounts would not be able to do it again for 2 days.  I think this would not impact honest players at all.  Additionally, the "license key tag" on tools and cash stay for some number of days, and would track with the cash and tools even if they were dumped in a third party house.

I should point out that the dual accounter that wants to occasionally bail himself out is still good in this model, but it would stop the rampant pumping of accounts that is happening now.

Last edited by cullman (2014-04-06 08:36:38)

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#42 2014-04-06 08:41:30

42dustman
Member
Registered: 2014-01-20
Posts: 231

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

The only solution for dual accounts is creating a community server where those are banned because Jason ain't going to do shit about them.

Last edited by 42dustman (2014-04-06 08:42:15)


Self-testing is torture.

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#43 2014-04-06 09:07:52

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@MMaster, you are really not getting this.  My house COULDN'T be robbed within the time by any player short of spending a fortune on tools or being 1 in 1024 lucky. The difference to me is that instead of being safe knowing my house would survive the night, it was robbed in a way I couldn't imagine by a cheater.  The difference to me is time and money.  But that's not even the most of it!

The biggest problem with dual account cheaters is that they are killing the playerbase and hence killing the game.

Users who condone dual account cheating are also helping to kill the game.  It's sad as apart from this one major issue, the game and the community here are great.

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#44 2014-04-06 09:11:47

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

dual account cheating

Dual accounts aren't cheating. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If I was okay with cheating, I wouldn't waste money on two accounts and would juts hack the game.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#45 2014-04-06 09:27:28

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

You've put me on the list: I have only bought one account, and I DO think that dual-accounting is a problem. I just don't think that it's completely gamebreaking as some people say, and I want a well-thought out solution that would work without harming normal users. I am against it; in fact, I believe I was the one who originally suggested the 5 minute timer on new houses to help prevent dual-account abuse.

However, I don't think that two separate people collaborating is "cheating" at all like you say. Having a group of robbers does have an advantage over a single robber, and I think that's the way that it should be. Only one person gets the loot though, and you have to find someone who won't betray you. It's not possible for everyone to have the same chance as a single person, because everyone is made up of multiple single people.

A "2K safe house" normally means one that can't be easily brute forced through for 2K worth of tools, usually following the most obvious path. Granted that's pretty subjective. If you have such a house, then chances are you will be robbed, and it does not mean that someone dual-accounted you.


One account per IP address causes massive problems for schools, family, and public internet connections. Anyone who wants to abuse two accounts can still easily sidestep it.

People can already report what they suspect to be dual-account usage if they want, I really don't think people should be banned for it though, especially considering there's no completely reliable way to test for it (could just be two people collaborating, which I am personally fine with).


If someone has a solution that would actually be effective at combating dual account usage, and not affect normal one account users, then I would be happy to support it. I just haven't seen such a solution as of yet, that doesn't mean I am pro dual-accounts or that I immediately must own one.

AMWhy wrote:

@MMaster, you are really not getting this.  My house COULDN'T be robbed within the time by any player short of spending a fortune on tools or being 1 in 1024 lucky. The difference to me is that instead of being safe knowing my house would survive the night, it was robbed in a way I couldn't imagine by a cheater.  The difference to me is time and money.  But that's not even the most of it!

The biggest problem with dual account cheaters is that they are killing the playerbase and hence killing the game.

Users who condone dual account cheating are also helping to kill the game.  It's sad as apart from this one major issue, the game and the community here are great.

If I'm understanding this right, the person still had to be 1 in 1024 lucky, they just had the advantage of then being able to bring tools and rob you on their alt.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-04-06 09:48:19)

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#46 2014-04-06 09:49:42

super_maçon
Member
Registered: 2014-02-02
Posts: 28

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

@MMaster, you are really not getting this.  My house COULDN'T be robbed within the time by any player short of spending a fortune on tools or being 1 in 1024 lucky. The difference to me is that instead of being safe knowing my house would survive the night, it was robbed in a way I couldn't imagine by a cheater.  The difference to me is time and money.  But that's not even the most of it!

It could be a fortuned player just destroying your house "for fun". Just as 2k players trashing some low value house, or fortuned/middle class player who want to lower their money going on some low value houses.
I think that people here don't see this as an important issue as the game allows plenty of "unfairness" ( i'm not too sure of my English here :s ) and this one is not that worse in the end, just one more.

I still think dual account is an issue ( imo, it's more "fair" for a legit fortuned player to trash my house... ) but i don't play that much anymore so. tongue

Last edited by super_maçon (2014-04-06 09:51:10)

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#47 2014-04-06 10:08:06

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

@MMaster, you are really not getting this.  My house COULDN'T be robbed within the time by any player short of spending a fortune on tools or being 1 in 1024 lucky.

I understand what you are saying and yes he had an advantage. But that does not mean that anyone without advantage couldn't have done the same. If someone with $2k tools comes into your house and he is able to rob you with second account after that then your house certainly COULD have been robbed within the time even by someone without 2 accounts.

AMhy wrote:

The difference to me is that instead of being safe knowing my house would survive the night, it was robbed in a way I couldn't imagine by a cheater.  The difference to me is time and money.  But that's not even the most of it!

You can NEVER be sure that your house will survive the night.

AMWhy wrote:

The biggest problem with dual account cheaters is that they are killing the playerbase and hence killing the game.

Users who condone dual account cheating are also helping to kill the game.  It's sad as apart from this one major issue, the game and the community here are great.

This is only your assumption and you don't have any real proof. You currently see it as an issue and try to make it even bigger issue by stating things like this in the same way as I did when I said that posts like this are killing the game, because when someone opens the forum everything he sees is that everyone cheats by using multiple accounts.

Last edited by MMaster (2014-04-06 10:09:21)


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#48 2014-04-06 10:11:41

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

MMaster wrote:

This is only your assumption and you don't have any real proof. You currently see it as an issue and try to make it even bigger issue by stating things like this in the same way as I did when I said that posts like this are killing the game, because when someone opens the forum everything he sees is that everyone cheats by using multiple accounts.

Deep.


It's a trap!

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#49 2014-04-06 10:18:26

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@colorfusion you were added to the list due to pro dual account comments on a different thread.

@colourfusion @super_maicon there's no doubt about the player who robbed me way back being a player with two accounts.  That is not up for debate and it's not the issue at all.  For a random player to rob me, they'd need to be 1 in 1024 lucky.  The player who robbed me brought the exact tools needed by the previous player who failed and died in my house near the vault.  The odds of solving the puzzle by chance is 1 in 1024. The odds of bringing the exact tools, no more and no less, to bypass/ get around the puzzles, and choosing the correct route, not to mention passing multiple commit gates with a 35k account are astronomical.

What is the issue is dual account count abuse and forum members condoning that abuse.
While true, having two accounts alone is not cheating, the option is there and most, if not all, two account players do/have cheated.

You asked for a solution to the problem.  I gave three.  The third, ban all multiple account holders, is starting to sound more appealing all the time!  The minimum that we should do is stop the pro-dual account talk.  If you have two accounts, keep it quiet and use them sensibly.  Perhaps then, other players will join and enjoy the game.

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#50 2014-04-06 10:45:07

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

@colorfusion you were added to the list due to pro dual account comments on a different thread.

@colourfusion @super_maicon there's no doubt about the player who robbed me way back being a player with two accounts.  That is not up for debate and it's not the issue at all.  For a random player to rob me, they'd need to be 1 in 1024 lucky.  The player who robbed me brought the exact tools needed by the previous player who failed and died in my house near the vault.  The odds of solving the puzzle by chance is 1 in 1024. The odds of bringing the exact tools, no more and no less, to bypass/ get around the puzzles, and choosing the correct route, not to mention passing multiple commit gates with a 35k account are astronomical.

I'd like a link to those comments. I'm pretty sure I've never said I like, support, endorse, condone, encourage, or advocate dual-account usage. I do think that it is a problem, just not a huge one.

You're ruling things out as "not up for debate" that your point very clearly relies upon, and which you're using as an anecdote to try to prove that a real problem exists. I could just as easily say "nobody has more than one account, and that's not up for debate" to support my point, but if I have no proof then that means nothing.

If it's a 1 in 1024 chance to solve the house properly, then bringing tools does not decrease your chance of solving it. If the player picked the "correct route" then they wouldn't need to use 2 water and 2 wire cutters, so clearly they didn't pick the right route. By the sound of it they used the tools to bypass two guessing traps, which could bring the chance right down to 1/256 or even lower. The chance of partially picking the right route, and then having the right tools to reach the vault, isn't too unrealistic if you've had a lot of people robbing you.

Passing multiple commit gates doesn't reduce the chance of a robbery being successful, it just reduces the amount of people that will try to rob you.

Narrowing it down to a certain person doing something will make the chances "astronomical". The chance of somebody robbing you may be 1/10, but the chance of specifically "Gary Garland Gardener" robbing you at 11:15PM on Saturday the 5th of April 2014 will be miniscule. That doesn't mean that Gary's cheating though because he overcame such tiny chances.

Even if it was a dual account, your house doesn't sound very safe if somebody with no tools got within 4 weak tiles of the vault. The potential dual-accounter didn't get too much of an advantage, and there's a good chance that your house wouldn't have survived too longer any way, but it was just enough to be able to push for the vault.

AMWhy wrote:

What is the issue is dual account count abuse and forum members condoning that abuse.
While true, having two accounts alone is not cheating, the option is there and most, if not all, two account players do/have cheated.

You asked for a solution to the problem.  I gave three.  The third, ban all multiple account holders, is starting to sound more appealing all the time!  The minimum that we should do is stop the pro-dual account talk.  If you have two accounts, keep it quiet and use them sensibly.  Perhaps then, other players will join and enjoy the game.

Banning all multiple account holders would be horrible, and near impossible to detect. How do you go about detecting somebody who uses a different email and switches their IP? If Jason goes around banning people just from suspicion then there'd be a massive outcry from legitimate users who get banned, who don't have an alt account to fall back on like dual-account users would.

Again, I haven't supported dual account use, I just don't think it happens as often as people think, and I don't think it gives a game breaking advantage as most people think. I do think it gives an advantage, and I do think it should be stopped if possible.

I legitimately hope that someone comes up with a great solution to help solve the problem, but I just don't think things like banning everyone who you suspect of using dual accounts is going to work well.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-04-06 14:18:40)

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