The Castle Doctrine Forums

Discuss the massively-multiplayer home defense game.

You are not logged in.

#1 2014-04-07 04:34:18

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Server that does not tolerate cheating

I am considering running a server that prevents cheating (dual account, and otherwise).  I have a number of ways to do this that won't impact the game for players that don't like to play this way.  I have a day job in the software business, so running this is not ideal, and want to make sure people would show up.  I will run such a server if I can get 50 people to say they will come play (less than 10% of the forum community).  Let me know on this board.  At 50 I will start it up.

Offline

#2 2014-04-07 04:52:45

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I'm in.

Offline

#3 2014-04-07 06:05:43

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

This is great idea. I'm certainly in - just for the sake of argument to show you that anything you will do will not make any difference and I will be able to have multiple accounts without you ever knowing unless I tell you. You both ignore all our arguments so maybe after you spend your time implementing your anti-dual account server and watch as people easily get around it will make you believe that it is NOT possible to make gold from water even if you spend whole life trying. You would have to ask for credit card info or government issued ID to reliably identify multiple account users (unless they use their family IDs/ multiple credit cards) but this game is not 18+ so not everyone playing has ID and credit card.

Let me tell you what I will do in advance so you can improve your detection: I will create 1 account with completely different email from completely different IP for each $2k of tools I will want to give to my main account. Each time I will want to gain advantage I will create completely new account (either for free scouting or dumping money to my main).

I have 15 years experience with networking and I'm also regular visitor and contributor of IETF. I still may be wrong so if you don't believe me I will let you smash your head against the wall so you learn it the harder way. Maybe you are new genius that can solve problem which IETF members write a new specification draft for because it requires change of how IP addresses are represented (edit: rfc is already out http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6830). Even after that change (several years until it gets to real world use) it will still be possible to bypass it by using VPN, TOR or proxy.

Feel free to add 50 people for me as I have many 'friends' that want to play on "cheat free" server.

Last edited by MMaster (2014-04-07 07:30:13)


...

Offline

#4 2014-04-07 07:46:41

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

There are barley 50 people on the main server. Anyone logical will avoid cullman. You won't get 10 other complainers to come to a boring ass server with no one on it, less players than main server. Cullman since you are so hype on fixing everything yourself - but you still don't see you are the one who ruins things even more. I think i'm quitting this game because just seeing cullman complain everyday is like a disease.

Offline

#5 2014-04-07 08:31:26

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Go for it MMaster.  I already explained how to stop abuse without needing anything but license keys.  For the doubters, I have a history of taking open source stuff and turning it into more usable products.  In fact, the last such project I founded is top 200 on Apple Appstore, top 50 on Google Play, Number 2 on Amazon app store (behind minecraft), top 60 on Windows mobile store, has 5 million users, etc...

Offline

#6 2014-04-07 08:35:01

StefanLindskog
Member
From: Oslo, Norway
Registered: 2014-02-22
Posts: 268

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Cullman. Great initiative!
I say fuck the naysayers right up their stupid asses, and go make that thing. I'm sure MMaster will do his best to trip that server into the shit, but at least offer him the opportunity to fail. I've been reading the forum on and off the last weeks, and I'm sickened by how the dual account crew, sometimes with violent arrogance, justify their dubious playstyles. I know a lot of people already see me as an idiot, but so fucking be it. I'll go stand in the idiot corner with a big ass smile on my face.


Current life: Unknown

Rotary toggle switches... Sooooo sexy.

Offline

#7 2014-04-07 08:36:10

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Wow, nice Culman.  My app only has about 10k users.

Offline

#8 2014-04-07 08:38:45

poor
Member
Registered: 2014-03-23
Posts: 113

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I would totally join this.


"Safety" is relative
Current life: None; I'm quite dead.

Offline

#9 2014-04-07 08:40:07

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

MMaster I just noticed your post about IETF.  I guarantee I have more security experience than you (I sold one of my security companies to Cisco).  Happy to take this offline, send me a PM.  We can talk live.

Offline

#10 2014-04-07 08:52:37

poor
Member
Registered: 2014-03-23
Posts: 113

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Also, crazyAce, your post says everything about you that I care to know. Consider resorting to something other than insults, dismissal, and profanity and I might change my mind. (not that I think you care)


"Safety" is relative
Current life: None; I'm quite dead.

Offline

#11 2014-04-07 08:54:32

42dustman
Member
Registered: 2014-01-20
Posts: 231

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I would join.


Self-testing is torture.

Offline

#12 2014-04-07 08:58:38

gyuri
Member
Registered: 2013-07-09
Posts: 231

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Me too.

Offline

#13 2014-04-07 09:02:11

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

While you fools try to split a already ruined 'community' and trying to act justified doing it - this is just a joke. If a main server struggles to grow but you think this idea will help? lol. 0 robberies ALL night will be almost as fun as 4!

I hope Jason see's you as more of a destroyer than a helping citizen.

Offline

#14 2014-04-07 09:02:21

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I'll join. I'm interested in how you plan to prevent dual account abuse. If it works, then it could be great to do something similar on the main server.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-04-07 09:03:00)

Offline

#15 2014-04-07 09:16:23

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

If Jason views me as a destroyer, so be it.  I have offered up my ideas as an attempt to help save a game that is doomed in my opinion.  I don't think there are any houses in the top 20 that aren't dual account cheaters.  The reality is, you cannot compete at this game without 2 accounts very well.  I don't even have an issue with buying a second account, but I don't have time to dump money to myself all day to stay competitive.

To be clear, my server would allow dual accounts, from the same IP, same email, whatever.  I would implement something like this idea, that I posted in the other thread :

"Anytime tools are bought the user's license key is stored along with that particular tool.  Anytime, bounty is generated it is too associated with the original license key.  So for simplicity sake let's say I have 2 accounts that I am using to cheat, with simplified license keys 1, and 2. Account 1 builds a house, and spends all $2000 doing it.  Account #2 goes and robs User 1s house perfectly, pumping it's bounty.  In the meantime an unrelated user (call it account 3) goes into Account #1s house and dies leaving a bounty, a second unrelated account (account 4) goes in with a  single meat and dies as well also leaving a bounty.  Now account 2 goes and buys 5 saws and goes in to account #1 house and dies.  Here would be the data representation of the money and tools associated with Account #1's house/account :
In aggregate and to the end user it would look like he has $1300 in cash, 5 saws, and 1 dog meat, or in total value $2400
Under the hood it would look like this :
$1100 - originating from account #2
$100 - originating from account #3
$100 - originating from account #4
5 saws/$1000 - originating from account #2
1 dog meat originating form account #4
Now the server does a check.  This house is worth $2400, $2100 or 87% of it coming from account #2.  Now all the server does is this analysis and does a bidirectional force ignore between the two accounts of something like 4-6 hours for every 10% of wealth represented by the second account.  In this case the 2 accounts would not be able to do it again for 2 days.  I think this would not impact honest players at all.  Additionally, the "license key tag" on tools and cash stay for some number of days, and would track with the cash and tools even if they were dumped in a third party house.
I should point out that the dual accounter that wants to occasionally bail himself out is still good in this model, but it would stop the rampant pumping of accounts that is happening now."

Obviously, this model would need some tuning and testing to get right.

Offline

#16 2014-04-07 09:26:55

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Have you ever even had a house sit at 30K or above? You might go 12 Hours with 0 robbery attempts on a normal day. Id be happy if a couple dual accounts came to scout my house. Didn't you see blip stole 95k from me toolless few nights ago. Congrats Blip.

Cullman: You are such a salty person over a $200 theft you still rag on it for days.

Imagine how boring your homemade server will be. Wake up. If you don't have time to play Castle Doctrine like you said to keep up. Then how would you maintain all the complainers that follow you?

Last edited by crazyace (2014-04-07 09:28:39)

Offline

#17 2014-04-07 09:35:26

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Please stop this alienating talks crazyace.
I'm happy that cullman has made such initiative. I'm really interested to see how the steps he has shown above will stop me from using 10 accounts to boost single house or scout AMWhys house with 9 accounts and rob him with 10th during single night.
Cullman now that I see your background I'm really really interested how will you solve this.

EDIT: also I'm sorry cullman, but I'm under several NDAs so I can't talk about my work, but I can tell you that you should never assume anything because maybe the person you are talking to is actually from the company that bought your company.

Last edited by MMaster (2014-04-07 09:57:27)


...

Offline

#18 2014-04-07 09:47:24

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

Having a different point of view is fair since that's all your text is to us.

Take a $100 bill, rip it in half, Give half to your buddy on your left, and half to your buddy on your right. Which one will have more fun or do the best they can with it? Or will they realize its better to keep it together.

Such a petty problem that has been exaggerated by extremely long posts by certain handful of people and pointing fingers at people. New players come on just see bitch's bitching about losing $400 house and it took them 2 weeks to earn. I'm sick of it and being labeled 1st on some list when I didn't do anything means I'm entitled to speak my mind too. I will disagree with these bad forum topics by the same few people plaguing everyone daily.

Jump off this bridge. Please do.  Cullman needs to make his own forum too obviously. Better get on this ASAP.

Last edited by crazyace (2014-04-07 10:20:58)

Offline

#19 2014-04-07 10:42:10

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

crazyace wrote:

Have you ever even had a house sit at 30K or above? You might go 12 Hours with 0 robbery attempts on a normal day. Id be happy if a couple dual accounts came to scout my house. Didn't you see blip stole 95k from me toolless few nights ago. Congrats Blip.

Cullman: You are such a salty person over a $200 theft you still rag on it for days.

Imagine how boring your homemade server will be. Wake up. If you don't have time to play Castle Doctrine like you said to keep up. Then how would you maintain all the complainers that follow you?

I have had a few houses at $30k and above, and I think they don't get attacked much because there are less and less players due to the cheating. The game was much better 4-5 weeks ago, I literally couldn't get into my house at times because it was being robbed non-stop by the larger user base.  Here is a big counter to all your arguments that alts improve the game because of more robbing :  PEOPLE WITH ALTS CAN ONLY ROB ONE HOUSE AT A TIME.  In an alt cheating game world that has 100 people playing 5 accounts at once, while you have 500 accounts, really you only have a 100 people at the keyboard at one time. Versus a game world where there is less or no cheating that attracts 400 people with 1 account and 50 people 2 with accounts, both worlds have 500 accounts, but the latter has the ability for 450 people to be playing at the same time.  No one can argue with the validity of that statement.  No one can argue that the number of people and robberies are going down as alt abuse goes up.  You guys can say its because we are talking about it in the forum, but that is not true.  He has sold over 15,000 castle robbery accounts since he has started there are less than 700 registered on this board.  I think people are quitting because it's too hard (which again was Jason's intention, but perhaps not great for the long term health of the game), and even people who eventually understand the game start quitting because of the cheating.  For those of you who say you are going to quit the game because you are tired of the complaints on the board, I say to you, quit the board instead.

Anyway, as I have said on my hypothetical server people can have as many alts as they want, there will just be measures to stop the cash dumping.  I am not salty, I am not ragging, I am trying to suggest a solution to these problems that other people view as problems.  I am (potentially) taking steps to solve these problems (for those of us who think that they are problems).  All I see you do is litter up this board with contentless nonsense all day long.  What I really don't understand is this...those of you who are pro-cheating and are so sure my proposal will not work or not make for a better game, why even bother responding to me?  If I am going to fail then let me fail.  I think you respond because you know I am right and fear a world where insecure people that get a charge out of cheating at a game won't have a massive advantage if they want to sit and dump back and forth with alts all day - if you didn't why wouldn't you just ignore this discussion?

Offline

#20 2014-04-07 10:53:07

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

MMaster wrote:

Please stop this alienating talks crazyace.
I'm happy that cullman has made such initiative. I'm really interested to see how the steps he has shown above will stop me from using 10 accounts to boost single house or scout AMWhys house with 9 accounts and rob him with 10th during single night.
Cullman now that I see your background I'm really really interested how will you solve this.

EDIT: also I'm sorry cullman, but I'm under several NDAs so I can't talk about my work, but I can tell you that you should never assume anything because maybe the person you are talking to is actually from the company that bought your company.

My plan for that, MMaster, is to offer a free account to the first 50-100 people that post on this thread.  After that accounts will be $10-20 on my server.  If someone wants to invest $100-$300 and then spend a bunch of time dumping cash to themselves so be it.  However, if someone reports them as being suspicious and I investigate them and if they are suspicious I will suspend accounts or permanently ban accounts.  Additionally, with my asset tracking model, I could see that all your income is derived from 10 accounts.  I could see that a user is getting all his income from 10 accounts when the server average is 50 accounts - that will make you an outlier and I will discover you.

The reality is, if I take the initiative to do this, I doubt I will stop at a no cheating server.  I suspect I will make and iOS and Android port as well, which is another way to stop dual account cheating or at least slow it down.  I will probably add some other features to make it easier on newbies, and a few other things to smooth out the learning curve in order to attract new players.  I think Jason has come upon a brilliant game mechanic, and when it's working I have played no better or more interesting game and it could really have mass appeal and a great future with some tuning.  These things don't seem to be a priority for Jason, which I respect.  I am grateful that he has made this game and the source code copyright free and has no restrictions with what can be done with it.  That is what makes this potential project possible for me.

As for talking to me, I didn't want to talk about your job, I wanted to talk about compsec in general.  There is no NDA in the world that will prevent you from doing that, so that excuse sounds like a cop out to me.  There are literally 75,000 people that work for the company that acquired mine (I am long gone from there), some smart, some not so smart. However, it sounds like you have figured out who I am, and you believe that I know what I am talking about at this point anyway, so perhaps it is moot.

Offline

#21 2014-04-07 10:54:01

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I don't even care what cheating is. This is a $16 game that seems to mean more than everything to you. Good luck.

All you do is litter up the forum all day with 1 hour posts about people cheating. Yes the first time I agree with you. I definitely will not waste more of my time reading your nonsense about hypothetical bullshit in a petty ass game that was never intended to turn into the vagina monologs. Deal with it. Life isn't fair.

Offline

#22 2014-04-07 10:54:03

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

I reply because I care. I just wanted to save you some work. It is good that you mentioned it will not solve the issue AMWhy was talking about (robbed by dual account user in single night). I still think that your solution will not stop cash dumping as I still can have as many accounts as I want. The more accounts I will have the more cash I can dump to my main account per day.


...

Offline

#23 2014-04-07 11:02:49

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

crazyace wrote:

I don't even care what cheating is. This is a $16 game that seems to mean more than everything to you. Good luck.

All you do is litter up the forum all day with 1 hour posts about people cheating. Yes the first time I agree with you. I definitely will not waste more of my time reading your nonsense about hypothetical bullshit in a petty ass game that was never intended to turn into the vagina monologs. Deal with it. Life isn't fair.

It may be a petty ass game, but now that I see these problems will not be fixed and that the source code is not encumbered by copyright, I am seeing a potential business opportunity.  The last time I saw an open source project that wasn't doing things the way I thought best, I forked it to scratch my particular itch.  I ended up making a great deal of money as a side effect.  It's funny the people in the original open source community ridiculed me, called me names "cuntman", etc.  However, my project is now the equal of the original open source project in terms of users,  far superior in terms of revenue, and many of those who ridiculed me now use my version exclusively.

Offline

#24 2014-04-07 11:10:46

DaVinci243
Member
Registered: 2014-03-27
Posts: 72

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

So you are here for business?

From what I see you value your time & money. All your talk has one small point, and that's dual-accounting.
I liked your idea of how to create a source of income out of a ready project.

I'd also like to join this if any slots are available.


noob programmer haking on open-source game.

Offline

#25 2014-04-07 11:44:14

MMaster
Member
Registered: 2014-02-12
Posts: 325

Re: Server that does not tolerate cheating

cullman wrote:

My plan for that, MMaster, is to offer a free account to the first 50-100 people that post on this thread.  After that accounts will be $10-20 on my server.  If someone wants to invest $100-$300 and then spend a bunch of time dumping cash to themselves so be it.  However, if someone reports them as being suspicious and I investigate them and if they are suspicious I will suspend accounts or permanently ban accounts.  Additionally, with my asset tracking model, I could see that all your income is derived from 10 accounts.  I could see that a user is getting all his income from 10 accounts when the server average is 50 accounts - that will make you an outlier and I will discover you.

So you create payed server that does not solve AMWhy issue and does not solve cash dumping issue for people, that have enough money to create multiple accounts. And you will just manually check if people are cheating or not. Sounds like a plan smile

cullman wrote:

The reality is, if I take the initiative to do this, I doubt I will stop at a no cheating server.  I suspect I will make and iOS and Android port as well, which is another way to stop dual account cheating or at least slow it down.  I will probably add some other features to make it easier on newbies, and a few other things to smooth out the learning curve in order to attract new players.  I think Jason has come upon a brilliant game mechanic, and when it's working I have played no better or more interesting game and it could really have mass appeal and a great future with some tuning.  These things don't seem to be a priority for Jason, which I respect.  I am grateful that he has made this game and the source code copyright free and has no restrictions with what can be done with it.  That is what makes this potential project possible for me.

You are of course free to do that. It is interesting way of making money with open-source software by offering services (your cheater checking service). The more people your server will have the more work you will have. If you take just one time payment the time will come when you will have to check for cheats without being payed. I guess you will just stop checking then (why would you if you are not payed for it? ) smile

Btw. if you see obvious cheating you can send Jason an email and he replies. I guess nobody has tried.

cullman wrote:

As for talking to me, I didn't want to talk about your job, I wanted to talk about compsec in general.  There is no NDA in the world that will prevent you from doing that, so that excuse sounds like a cop out to me.  There are literally 75,000 people that work for the company that acquired mine (I am long gone from there), some smart, some not so smart. However, it sounds like you have figured out who I am, and you believe that I know what I am talking about at this point anyway, so perhaps it is moot.

Perhaps I don't think we have anything to talk about, because I don't like you personally. Now that I have read this I see that you just want to take Jason's work and under false advertisement create "cheat free" server just to make business out of it. You will as well as Jason stop taking care of it as soon as people will stop buying it, because the money will stop flowing and you will not be payed for your manual anti-cheater services.


...

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB 1.5.8