Clearly its personal

Amatiel · 2014-10-09 19:57:10

Ronald Kevin Gregor just attempted to brute force me with 14k worth of tools.... my value was 12k at the time. He was unsuccessful of course even tho he brought the exact tools he needed. (just not quite enough)

He also had a very suspicious knowledge of my house and his erratic value is also quite suspicious as well. Just suspicious at this stage, nothing concrete.

He also appears to have taken down someone else right after me and went from 30k to 80k.... then jumped to 82k, then 84... quite suspicious indeed.

Last edited by Amatiel (2014-10-09 20:50:05)

AMWhy · 2014-10-09 20:16:49

I was just looking at him suspiciously myself. Last I looked he was about 30k. Who did he rob?

Amatiel · 2014-10-09 20:51:58

I dont know! Who else besides Eppfel/Rodrigruez had more than 50K at the time? I cant remember anyone...

Edit: actually i think Gregor's value was 33k before the jump to 80 so whoever he robbed mustve had 47K

2nd Edit: Ok looking back through my records he is DEFINITELY at least a multiple account user. His house has been up longer than mine, and the only way he could have such intimate knowledge of my house is having managed to suicide scout that section of the house before i had a tougher security in place. A suicide scout did indeed lay eyes on that section of my house.

So hes now number one on the shit list.

Last edited by Amatiel (2014-10-09 22:44:18)

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 01:39:46

Gregor has been dealt with.
I made an absolute mess of his place too. Most of his wealth was cash, which further cements the multi-account evidence against him.

He started it

I finished it.

cullman · 2014-10-10 01:48:06

Not to turn every topic into a Terminal Heist topic (ok who am I kidding, that's exactly what I do). What is the board's consensus on fixed names, plus the ability to up or down vote a security tape, and those votes basically turn into a user's karma ala reddit. Sure, this can be abused by people down voting good robberies just because they are angry they were robbed. But in general it seems most people actually appreciate good robberies/tapes/scouts/attempts. While, with dual accounting and map hacks one can never be certain that is 100% certain that is what is going on. It seems to me the message board crowd does a pretty good job picking out shady players.

Now what do we do with this Karma rating? Well at some threshold it could trigger a moderator/administrator investigation. Or we could have different chill times on people with bad karma or potentially other auto punishing mechanisms. This system would be as good as the community using it in my opinion and I am leaning towards adding it in version 1.0.

Any potential downsides I am not seeing with this proposal? I know I have mentioned it before. There could also be a button to allow people to indicate they think 2 or n users are linked or collaborating. That one could be even less intrusive with the idea of maybe accounts that have high "collaborating scores" not allowed to go into the same house with in certain time frames. Obviously, these ideas only work with a good sized user community, where the majority are trying to play the game as it's meant to be played.

Ultimately, the server could also chime in on Karma or have it's own trust rating. This is a totally made up complicated idea with some fudge in numbers. Let me give you a few scenarios. John Bailey Smith has house, that takes 120 moves to successfully self test, and has $40k in value in it.

Now Player 1 ( a legit player) has been suicide scouted this house twice and fled scouted it two more times. The first time he made it 21 moves about brought 2k of tools and died, the second time he made 34 moves and brought 2k of tools and died, the third time he made is 110 moves and brought 2k of tools fled and the 4th time he cracks it by bringing in $2k of tools an doing it in 145 moves. He finally cracks the vault the server says, It took player 1 21+34+110+145=400 moves and $8k of tools to crack the house. We now the user took 400 moves and $8k of tools to solve a house that's perfect solve is 100 moves a $0. So the server gives this user a tool efficiency rating of 20% (spent $8k of tools to get $40k, where 0$k would be the best and $40k (or more) would be the worst, so 20 our of 100 on tool efficiency or a score of %20, where the worst score is %100. In the case the user's efficiency is 80% on tool use., where if he spent $0 his efficiency would be 100% Now in terms of his move efficiency you could have system where the perfect move for this house is 120 steps. His first attempt he went 21 steps and died the system scores this as 21 moves + 120 for dying where 120 is the perfect number of steps. So far 141 steps score. Second attempt he goes 34 moves and dies giving him 141 from before + 34 steps + 120 more steps for dying now he is at 295 steps. 3rd attempt he goes in 110 moves and runs out the door so now he is at 405 steps. 4th attempt he goes in and does it 145 moves. So while his total actual moves is only 400 to solve this house across attempt due to death penalties we are counting it as 550 moves. Now we know that solving a house that can self test in 120 steps in 120 steps is a prefect score, or 100%, Since our guy took 550 steps we score it at 120/550 0r a 21%. We get a score of 21% If our guy did it in 121 steps he'd get a 99% if he did it 15000 steps he'd get a 0% score. What do we conclude from this robbery our guy score an 80% on tool efficiency and a 21% on move efficiency. In my mind this is an ok executed robbery funded with suicide scouts.

Person #2 comes in and map hacks, brings zero tools and does the map in the 120 perfect steps he gets 100% on tool efficiency and 100% on move efficiency perfect robbery. Cheater or incredibly lucky.

If Person #3 who is a dual accounter comes in and has heavily scouted with his alt and knows just to bring 2 waters and a ladder, and does it with $2,000 of tools and 140 moves on his one and only visit with no deaths. He has a 95% tool efficiency and an 85% move efficiency. I am suspicious. Especially, if we know the given stats for this house is 29 steps til death on average even with 2k tools etc...

Now the server could start to track these stats on players, and houses and look for outliers. Clearly and empty unbuilt house is going to be hit with 100% tool and move efficiency but it will be by everyone, or short lived.

Ultimately, the server could pretty quickly rank who have the hardest houses, who are the most efficient robbers and who are maybe too efficient robbers. I think game would be a lot of fun with more stats and rankings. I also think it could help pin down cheaters. This proposal is off the top of my head so I know its a little bananas but there maybe be something to it.

Thoughts?

Last edited by cullman (2014-10-10 03:20:46)

AMWhy · 2014-10-10 02:57:32

@Cullman: An up/down button for robberies is good, but perhaps only on those over a certain number of steps. Voting on 3 step robberies would be tiresome. It would also be good to have a display stats button. For example, success/ failure rate of the robber, average tool spend per robbery attempt, average steps per robbery, percent of house seen on each visit... Am I asking too much?

@Amatiel: I hope you didn't take out Anderson while dealing with Gregor. I've known how to get to Anderson's safe, tool free since yesterday and was biding my time before making a move...

cullman · 2014-10-10 03:19:15

@Amwhy great feedback on 3 steps. No voting there. Also I'm not going to allow no tape zero step entries cause that causes problems. I added a whole second chapter to my post up there and I am planning to eventually go house and player stats crazy. How much of that data will end up getting seen by actual players will probably get play tested to decide. Definitely some of it. I think it would very cool to be known as the most efficient tool robber or the most efficient move robber especially if it's being all done on the up and up.

Last edited by cullman (2014-10-10 03:36:08)

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 03:20:32

@AMWhy: ... sorry bro, Anderson was a softer target than the cheater and i needed his vault contents to fund the demise of said cheater Ronald Kevin Gregor.
Anderson was just another typical combo lock with all the typical vulnerabilities that come with them. Did you crack the locks code and were waiting for him to rise in value?
I spose we are even now, as you have done exactly the same to me in the past

I have left Rodrigruez/Eppfel intact despite having more than enough wealth to brute force him as I only wanted to remove the cheater that was trying to brute force me. I take no prisoners in such circumstances.

So if youre reading this Eppfel... Ill have peace with you as long as you dont start using that vast wealth against me..... Believe me when I tell you that from the moment u step into my house to make or prepare a brute force assault on me, I will have plenty of time to retaliate in kind.

@Cullman: I like cullmans idea, plus the report function should only be available to experienced players as even we have a hard time determining what is and what isnt cheating, or at least make it so that a down vote requires a short written explanation as to why the reporting player believes player x is cheating to assist any investigation.

EDIT: also any attempt to make a report should come with a pop up that explains commonly mistaken assertions of cheating, how unlikely it is that someone is cheating and explains some of the various protections against cheating.

Last edited by Amatiel (2014-10-10 03:22:35)

cullman · 2014-10-10 03:30:22

@amatiel. Not to thread sit, but rather than having a thumbs up for good robbery and thumbs down meaning I'm sure you cheated. I would view the thumbs down and label it as suspicious/confusing/or surprising robbery. I like the idea if asking for a comment on a thumbs down and maybe even a thumbs up. Also, there should be a neutral thumb meaning I am not really sure or I don't really care about this robbery. What would be really neat is eventually seeing what players have high efficiencies and high karma. Those would be the most respected players in my mind.

Edit: also, players that overly give good karma to very few players that are often the same and/or are the same that are accused of collaborating accounts becomes interesting data.

Obviously, this all only works if we can present this stuff to the players so they don't need a phd in statistics to know what is going on.

Last edited by cullman (2014-10-10 03:33:56)

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 03:40:30

u can thread sit as much as you like

The problem with the karma thing.... remember how brutal this game can be and how shocking it is when someone robs you... if you have ever played DOTA 2 then you would know that players get reported out of spite all the time due to rage factor. The rage factor in this game is a whole other level. So I would be cautious about implementing a Karma system that automatically punishes/constrains players based on how many times they have been down voted/reported by what are most likely to be mostly butthurt players. Thats my main concern

Our community can deal with cheaters quite well atm as most of the players at the top are well known, so when an outsider comes along without announcing himself on the forums, anything even slightly dodgy that person does really stands out and the community has a few very experienced players that can distinguish between what is suspicious behavior and what isnt. Which is quite hard to do.

cullman · 2014-10-10 03:58:27

Thread sit I will. I was worried about the "butt hurt" cause I'm mad I got robbed whether it was fair or not. That was one of my first concerns with the idea. But I think I got it pretty easily solved. Someone that thumbs down 100% of their tapes. I'm just gonna drop their data on the floor that someone that just doesn't like to robbed and their data is useless. Likewise, I would weight a thumbs down karma vote from a player that gives 95% thumbs up and 5% thumbs with much more weight than someone that is 50/50 on thumbs up and thumbs down. I mean in my mind 90%+ of robberies are probably legit. The karma data that tracks that way is gonna be the better data. Also, if players are getting thumbed downed by everybody whether they are being thumbed down by some that doesn't typically thumb down and or by "butt hurt" crowd that person probably needs to lose some karma.

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 04:09:04

Hmmm so take a player that usually thumbs up robberies, if he tumbs down someone for suspicious behavior, that vote carrys far more weight.... i like it!

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 12:34:36

Multi account user suicide scouting me lol, its probably gregor come back from the grave trying to take his revenge! Be on the lookout for suspicious houses!

AMWhy · 2014-10-10 16:52:03

So Gregor is/was an opportunist. But then, in CD, aren't we all?

@Amatiel... I think it was your house... Am I right in thinking that the top-left part of your house is the same as an earlier design? I ask because I suicide scouted someone a day or two ago, who had a familiar house layout in that area. If so, it could be that I was the suicide scout you referred to in an earlier post and Gregor could be completely innocent, just lucky with the tools...

Amatiel · 2014-10-10 18:58:55

Yea i had no real suspicions regarding the big jump in wealth, i thought he robbed that herndon guy actually.

Its more to do with the fact that whenever gregor was active a lot (about 3 or 4) of empty 2k starter houses appeared for a split second then vanished, which is not the norm these days. His wealth would then go up accordingly. More incriminating was the knowledge he had of my house. It was different but similar to a previous design as you said amwhy, but he had the EXACT number tools necessary to brute force that section. He had clearly seen it before in that exact state and the only way he could do that is with extra accounts. The tools required for that section were rather... unique.

So its far more likely than not, that he using multiple accounts in a cooperative mannner.

Which doesnt overly bother me all that much tbh, it just means that i wont afford anyone who uses multiple accounts/cheats the same level of.... professional courtesy, when it comes to retaliation or whether ill conduct pre-emptive robberies to head off a potential threat and how far ill go in preventing a resurrection of that threat (wrecking their house completely).

No hate here, just self-preservationist streak.

Last edited by Amatiel (2014-10-11 08:35:54)

Amatiel · 2014-10-11 09:46:25

I am now convinced there is a single dual account user, or someone that is actively cooperating with someone else.

- The attempt on my place was done with two accounts that both had an established house, with the second account's attempted robberies occurring immediately after the first account's attempts.

- I have only seen this dual account pattern happen twice in my current house. So this leads me to believe its a single pair of accounts working together.

Furthermore, and heres the juicy bit... I believe the identity of this dual account user (or one of the 2 people cooperating) is LordofHam due to the following

- I was trawling through some of the old threads looking at different house designs and came across one that looked incredibly (recently) familiar. It was familiar because it was nearly exactly the same as the house that belonged to Tate? cant remember who it was... but he was the guy we were working together to bring his house down after determining he was cheating. This is one of LordofHam's old houses (quite a strong design too). On tates? house I scouted all the way to the far right hand side of the map and the design is the same.

It could also be that someone is just using his design, and i cant directly connect tate to the definite dual account robberies that were being done on my place. Even still.. why someone would cheat just to use someone else's design is an interesting question too. This is just my theory and im sharing what I know.

This is the design

Again, no hate here, just pointing out what I can see.

Last edited by Amatiel (2014-10-11 11:39:18)

AMWhy · 2014-10-11 17:00:29

LordofHam is a confirmed two account user and accidentally admitted that he cheats with two accounts (then denied it straight after). He quit the game but posted here recently. It could be him.

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2014-10-09 19:57:10

Clearly its personal

#2 2014-10-09 20:16:49

Re: Clearly its personal

#3 2014-10-09 20:51:58

Re: Clearly its personal

#4 2014-10-10 01:39:46

Re: Clearly its personal

#5 2014-10-10 01:48:06

Re: Clearly its personal

#6 2014-10-10 02:57:32

Re: Clearly its personal

#7 2014-10-10 03:19:15

Re: Clearly its personal

#8 2014-10-10 03:20:32

Re: Clearly its personal

#9 2014-10-10 03:30:22

Re: Clearly its personal

#10 2014-10-10 03:40:30

Re: Clearly its personal

#11 2014-10-10 03:58:27

Re: Clearly its personal

#12 2014-10-10 04:09:04

Re: Clearly its personal

#13 2014-10-10 12:34:36

Re: Clearly its personal

#14 2014-10-10 16:52:03

Re: Clearly its personal

#15 2014-10-10 18:58:55

Re: Clearly its personal

#16 2014-10-11 09:46:25

Re: Clearly its personal

#17 2014-10-11 17:00:29

Re: Clearly its personal

Board footer