Well, now the cashflow problem is on coke...

bey bey · 2013-06-15 09:43:48

Yup. I was in favour of a starting pack of tools and some cash for the house, I somehow liked that. But no tools upon start and a low minimum salary on broken houses would work as well and generate more gameplay, since without ANYTHING even one dog still alive in a broken house can take you down. That's some of the tenseness this game can produce.

Matrix · 2013-06-15 09:43:55

FunnyMan wrote:

It sounds to me like the immediate problem is that robbery is too effective right now. We've gone from a situation where you could build nigh-unsolvable houses with starting cash, to a situation where robbers can brute-force most houses with their starting cash. It's essentially creating an infinite money sink, so nobody can afford to build anything that might (temporarily) stand up to the robbers.
One solution might be to make everyone start with no backpack slots, and have to pay $2,000 (or perhaps a bit less) for each slot. That would mean that you'd start out with (nearly) no tools, and have to *earn* the ability to break houses by solving some first.

That right, but it's mostly due to an unstable transition from one system to another, rather than a wrong direction.

The solution you suggest would help yes, since it's a form of a progression system, but I am not sure that Jason wants to have an artificial progression system in his game. We'll see what he has to say

Matrix · 2013-06-15 10:07:27

bey bey wrote:

Yup. I was in favour of a starting pack of tools and some cash for the house, I somehow liked that. But no tools upon start and a low minimum salary on broken houses would work as well and generate more gameplay, since without ANYTHING even one dog still alive in a broken house can take you down. That's some of the tenseness this game can produce.

Yeah we could go down that route, but I think that the suggested solution limits legitimate players just to prevent some other exploit. Not saving the house state post robbery could achieve the same effect as long as the house budget is high enough so that you can protect the family against respawn spammers from start.

Also your suggestion does not prevent vandalism from players that actually get the money somehow. They could gain enough money to buy the tools needed to get to your vault and then use your money to buy more tools to destroy your whole house.

Last edited by Matrix (2013-06-15 10:08:48)

FunnyMan · 2013-06-15 10:08:56

Matrix wrote:

That right, but it's mostly due to an unstable transition from one system to another, rather than a wrong direction.

The problem is that it's looking like we've hit a stable situation. When new money gets injected into the system, it just drains away without producing any lasting changes. I don't think anybody's even trying to build, because someone will just wander in with $2000 of tools, break the entire house, and rob you. Then someone else comes along, waltzes through the ruins, and steals what the first one left behind.

Right direction or not, something needs to change, here. And I don't think the change can come at the user level, because there's just not much a homeowner can do against a starting budget's worth of tools. Certainly not on their own starting budget.

Laffinty · 2013-06-15 10:12:35

Matrix wrote:

FunnyMan wrote:
It sounds to me like the immediate problem is that robbery is too effective right now. We've gone from a situation where you could build nigh-unsolvable houses with starting cash, to a situation where robbers can brute-force most houses with their starting cash. It's essentially creating an infinite money sink, so nobody can afford to build anything that might (temporarily) stand up to the robbers.
One solution might be to make everyone start with no backpack slots, and have to pay $2,000 (or perhaps a bit less) for each slot. That would mean that you'd start out with (nearly) no tools, and have to *earn* the ability to break houses by solving some first.
That right, but it's mostly due to an unstable transition from one system to another, rather than a wrong direction.
The solution you suggest would help yes, since it's a form of a progression system, but I am not sure that Jason wants to have an artificial progression system in his game. We'll see what he has to say

Well for progression you need something to progress with, many houses can't be solved with 0 tools (esp. the ones that include animaltronics)

Matrix · 2013-06-15 10:13:46

FunnyMan wrote:

Right direction or not, something needs to change, here. And I don't think the change can come at the user level, because there's just not much a homeowner can do against a starting budget's worth of tools. Certainly not on their own starting budget.

Yes, the whole thread is about suggestions for changes. All are server/client related, none of them are at user-level.

What I was trying to say there is that the issues with v9 are due to a broken state. Not all necessary changes were put in place before it was released to the public, but there is nothing bad about that. In fact it helps people learn what's really broken.

FunnyMan · 2013-06-15 10:32:47

Matrix wrote:

In fact it helps people learn what's really broken.

Notably Jason himself. Hope he's doing OK; it can be really rough to see something you worked hard on fall apart like v9 has.

bey bey · 2013-06-15 10:44:42

Yup - it does feel like it's been three steps back and a half step forwards, but somehow more sustainable gameplay is on the horizon. (Even though once again the people with more than one account are stepping in to provide the cash - I robbed quite a few houses that kept popping up with only two revolvers in the safe earlier... I just assumed those were meant for me... )

FunnyMan · 2013-06-15 11:06:00

That was probably me, bey bey. I had a migraine earlier and am still feeling a bit mindless, so I spent a while injecting some cash into the system to see if it would help. That's how I knew that "When new money gets injected into the system, it just drains away without producing any lasting changes."; I watched it happen.

Edit: I'll note that I only have one account, I just left the guns in multiple peoples' safes.

Last edited by FunnyMan (2013-06-15 11:06:59)

Matrix · 2013-06-15 11:26:59

What I noticed is that someone was hoarding tools on his character and then was either dying with them or using them to vandalize others. I suspect that he was vandalizing seeing so many reports of vandalized houses, but I might be wrong.

bey bey · 2013-06-15 11:47:30

FunnyMan wrote:

That was probably me, bey bey. I had a migraine earlier and am still feeling a bit mindless, so I spent a while injecting some cash into the system to see if it would help. That's how I knew that "When new money gets injected into the system, it just drains away without producing any lasting changes."; I watched it happen.
Edit: I'll note that I only have one account, I just left the guns in multiple peoples' safes.

Tee hee, and there I was, thinking I was sooooo smart foiling somebody's plans. Didn't do much with it, just built a few walls, but in general I'd say thats because for any wall you build with cash that doesn't replenish, somebody can cut it down with still-cheap tools and then just kill himself and come again.

Laffinty · 2013-06-15 14:42:11

Seems people are having fun with my house

8 tried, 8 died

edit: correction, not 8 died, but 8 were unscessful
a couple of them died though

one kinda made it to the vault but decided to walk into a pitbull instead

Last edited by Laffinty (2013-06-15 15:22:44)

nathan · 2013-06-15 18:40:19

I'm new to this game, and I've been having this problem too. My current strategy is to have a house that fits within $2000 and just leave it after that. Once, I did that and logged back on to a tape of someone spending way too much money to just destroy every block in my house. He commits suicide, and then does it again. A couple times, I tried to stimulate the economy by leaving a house with $2000 in it, but it hasn't really helped. For a while, my house was at the top, and I only had $5 in my vault. A possible solution for this is by keeping the starting cash at $2000, but the player has a separate bank account with $1000 and it accumulates interest as time goes on (10%/hour?). They can both withdraw and deposit into the account, with the condition that they must make one successful robbery before doing so. Once someone robs their house, or the person dies in another person's house, the money is transferred into the other player's vault and can be put into their own bank account.

jasonrohrer · 2013-06-15 21:26:17

Okay, new salary system is in place now, where the conditions upon which your house stops earning salary are more specific. As long as there is something worthwhile happening concerning your house, money slowly builds up there.

The first pass of this, of course, means that there are now 700 houses with $140 or more each in them.

Some of this is just there for the taking. Other abandoned houses might still be "hard," which means that money will build up on them. That will become clear after the next few rounds of salary are paid.

Our biggest problem in v9 was a cash shortage that prevented anyone from building a house strong enough to survive a $2000-tool robbery. Obviously, it's possible with a bit more money, and as soon as someone bootstraps themselves, they will sit at the top for a while accumulating money, etc.

SmokestormX · 2013-06-16 09:04:36

Yep , logged on this morning , and people had cash again! YAY , robbed some easy houses so i could start actually making a house, still getting used to ditching tools though, especially on houses i walk in , and walk out Immediately. Step in the front door, still on the map "YOU DITCH YOUR TOOLS IN YOUR HURRIED ESCAPE!".. but I'm on the doormat...

I had been broken in by someone with 10 Acetylene Torches , it took a while to realize that was $2000 worth and obliviously a fresh player just robbing. $2000 to steal. my overnight earnings of $1400. But he was sure to vandalize every wall so not to actually leave me any of his torches.. so .. $200 dmg done too.

But it's clearly more fun again, from v8.

Walking into a darkened house and looking around, not knowing what to expect.. doing a dog dance, pressing forward carefully , that's great. I think I would like it if I could buy an extra life in this game for $1,000,000 .

bey bey · 2013-06-16 09:14:07

One might consider the option that tools are not dropped if the robber doesn't leave the doormat. I'm not sure about this, but I never take tools on scouting missions now, at least not for a first glance of what I might be dealing with.

colorfusion · 2013-06-16 09:18:43

bey bey wrote:

One might consider the option that tools are not dropped if the robber doesn't leave the doormat. I'm not sure about this, but I never take tools on scouting missions now, at least not for a first glance of what I might be dealing with.

This could be handy. If you just look into a house and see that it's completely broken with pit bulls everywhere then I don't think you should be penalized too much for walking away. It could also introduce the mechanic of home owners needing to lure players out, like having the vault in plain sight or an easy looking house rather than having an obvious dance trap straight away; the richest home owners would have to play chicken a bit to try and get the balance right between players just leaving straight away and players getting to their vault.

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-06-16 09:20:50)

bey bey · 2013-06-16 09:40:58

Yup! And you might still be kicking yourself if, after the first step, a horde of pitbulls comes into sight and you decide to run away instead of pressing your luck, so the fight or flight-choice would still be there.

nathan · 2013-06-16 10:29:16

I agree that if you just stay on the doormat, the whole ditching belongings thing should go away. I also think that the new update combined with the new salaries makes the game a lot more fun, and effectively removes combination locks from the game. I can see Jason's original vision now. However, it's obvious that most of the low-value houses are meant so people can spend money on tools, and house design seems like an afterthought. As a result, my house has (at the time I logged off, anyway) about $1000.

Laffinty · 2013-06-16 10:54:26

You've been away for XX hours and earned $1960. [Return to House]

Balance: $420

how does that work? Oo

zed · 2013-06-16 11:00:26

Another reason to do something about people getting $2000 worth of tools every
time they die - I just saw the following loophole being exploited:

If you can find a house which (perhaps after breaking into it and leaving it
in an appropriate state) you know how to solve with $2000 of tools, you can
then pump it up by repeatedly dying in it with, say, a couple of guns each
time, and then steal them all back.

This is not the kind of thing the game should be encouraging.

ukuko · 2013-06-16 11:08:18

Laffinty wrote:

You've been away for XX hours and earned $1960. [Return to House]
Balance: $420
how does that work? Oo

You earned a bunch and got robbed. The robber dropped something on their way out so your house still had money in it and continued earning.

ukuko · 2013-06-16 11:11:22

zed wrote:

Another reason to do something about people getting $2000 worth of tools every
time they die - I just saw the following loophole being exploited:
If you can find a house which (perhaps after breaking into it and leaving it
in an appropriate state) you know how to solve with $2000 of tools, you can
then pump it up by repeatedly dying in it with, say, a couple of guns each
time, and then steal them all back.
This is not the kind of thing the game should be encouraging.

This loophole has been around since v5 though, right?

Starting with a 'Starter' set of tools and a 'Materials' voucher seems like the cleanest fix.

Laffinty · 2013-06-16 11:14:53

ukuko wrote:

Laffinty wrote:
You've been away for XX hours and earned $1960. [Return to House]
Balance: $420
how does that work? Oo
You earned a bunch and got robbed. The robber dropped something on their way out so your house still had money in it and continued earning.

It doesn't logically make sense that I can earn something that is robbed while i'm earning it though?

jere · 2013-06-16 11:16:55

This loophole has been around since v5 though, right?

Heh. Actually it's been around since v2. Probably since the beginning, but I wouldn't know.

Last edited by jere (2013-06-16 11:19:40)

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#26 2013-06-15 09:43:48

Re: Well, now the cashflow problem is on coke...

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#28 2013-06-15 10:07:27

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#30 2013-06-15 10:12:35

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#37 2013-06-15 14:42:11

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#38 2013-06-15 18:40:19

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