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#1 2013-06-30 04:07:45

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

Dear Mr Developer Man,

Can we have it so that trapdoors are up in build mode?

As I see it, there is no real benefit from the current way it works.  All it does is make it a pain in the arse to place trapdoors, as you rip up your house to accomodate moving around them.  Sure it may be 'realistic' (if that even applies to this game) to have them powered off when placed, but yet no other trap tile is affected by this strange 'not-passable' phenomena during build mode.

Is it too much to ask to just make it easier to build trapdoors?

Last edited by dalleck (2013-06-30 04:09:15)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#2 2013-06-30 04:56:11

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

All traps and electrical devices are powered off in build mode, I find that it makes it a whole lot easier to understand how things work that way.

I think if we're going for ease of build then all objects should just have no collisions in build mode, but that might seem a bit strange.

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#3 2013-06-30 05:58:31

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

colorfusion wrote:

All traps and electrical devices are powered off in build mode, I find that it makes it a whole lot easier to understand how things work that way.

I think if we're going for ease of build then all objects should just have no collisions in build mode, but that might seem a bit strange.

I'm not in the dark as to 'why' trapdoors are opened when you place them in build mode, I understand the logic.

What I am saying is the 'how' this actually ends up for the user is counter to the actual purpose of build mode.

Which gets me thinking...

Maybe Jason would consider all the hard work he did on blueprint graphics and we could consider build mode as 'blueprint' mode, where you are planning your house and where things are going.  Just a thought.  Could still use the current player-in-overalls graphic, just that he is traversing a blueprint world and dropping all them elements as their blueprint equivalents.

Then, when things are destroyed/damaged/killed they could also use that crossed-out effect.  Could be thematically interesting.


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#4 2013-06-30 19:10:39

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

Yeah, I wanted it to be clear how trapdoors work (they are open when they are not powered).

If you were to place one, all by itself, and it looked closed, but then suddenly opened when you went to test it, I though that would be confusing.

Obviously, it would be really weird to stand on it in build mode while it was open (floating in the air).

The other traps don't have that problem, because they are all passable with power off (electric floors and doors).

I get what you're saying about it being a pain, though.

The "edit in map mode" idea is certainly a tempting one.  Editing while walking around the house is really a pain, and it would be so nice to just forget the walking around part.  However, I think that weird editing mode is an important part of the feel of the game.  It also allows you to interact with your own family a bit, and poke around as if you actually live there (as you inspect damage, etc.)

In general, you have to face the realities of building something (you can't box yourself in, paint yourself into a corner, etc.)  You can't cross open pits.  A pain, but it's all consistent, at least.

Obviously, this game isn't trying to avoid pain.  "Why can't I just paste in my old map instead of rebuilding?" and so on...

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#5 2013-06-30 20:43:12

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

A few times back in v9 I had trapdoors that I had placed in previous build mode sessions that were up during build mode, and I could walk around over them. Trapdoors that I placed during that particular session were open though. Is that how it's supposed to be? I recall wondering why some of the trapdoors were up and walk-able while others were not (in build mode).

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#6 2013-07-01 00:21:39

ukuko
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 333

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

It seems that any trapdoors turned on when your vault is reached will stay on in house edit mode until you begin the self test.

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#7 2013-07-01 01:55:31

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

jasonrohrer wrote:

The "edit in map mode" idea is certainly a tempting one.  Editing while walking around the house is really a pain, and it would be so nice to just forget the walking around part.  However, I think that weird editing mode is an important part of the feel of the game.  It also allows you to interact with your own family a bit, and poke around as if you actually live there (as you inspect damage, etc.)

To me, something seems appealing about the juxtaposition between the abstract of a blueprint with your wife crossed out and the reality of seeing it...

In short, I am saying that editing in blueprint mode could extend the cold/distant family/safety metaphor out.

Last edited by dalleck (2013-07-01 01:57:29)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#8 2013-07-01 03:06:33

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

ukuko wrote:

It seems that any trapdoors turned on when your vault is reached will stay on in house edit mode until you begin the self test.

Thanks

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#9 2013-07-01 03:20:22

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

Yup. How about a simple fix (well, simple for us big_smile). If you have a direct line of power to something, it will be powered. It should still be intuitive but would sort out the annoying trapdoor issue at least: just put one power source next to it for walking and remove it again after building. That would also remove the aesthetic problem of ripping out walls and replacing them for free.

OR powered trapdoors could just have a few wooden planks across them in build mode, which I would also find slightly sensible.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#10 2013-07-01 05:13:51

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

bey bey wrote:

Yup. How about a simple fix (well, simple for us big_smile). If you have a direct line of power to something, it will be powered. It should still be intuitive but would sort out the annoying trapdoor issue at least: just put one power source next to it for walking and remove it again after building. That would also remove the aesthetic problem of ripping out walls and replacing them for free.

OR powered trapdoors could just have a few wooden planks across them in build mode, which I would also find slightly sensible.

Yeah bey bey, I thought about this earlier (the powered thing), but then I wondered what happened when you removed the power source while you are standing on the trapdoor.  Do you die during build mode?  Seems a bit odd now, doesn't it?

I like the planks idea, though.  Kinda kooky and DIY.


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#11 2013-07-01 05:33:28

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

Yeah, the power thing is probably worse than just some diy planks threwn over the dangerous bits. Would add a nice aesthetic in tune with the harshness of the game.

(Pits shouldn't have this since the can exist without edges and it makes sense that a homeowner wouldnt plan on crossing them.)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#12 2013-07-01 05:43:44

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

What really grinds my gears is that I have to pay to remove a ladder from a trapdoor. Are they welded to the trapdoor?


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#13 2013-07-01 05:51:12

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

They pits are irreparably traumatized by the experience. They have to go to a home for old trapdoors to live out their days in agony.

(Honestly: It has annoyed me as well and I posted something about it a while back, but if trapdoors could just be repaired for 10 bucks, they'd be even more overpowered. Maybe they should rather be "hard-wired" or something similar so it's more obvious why they are broken. Or they might be something more techy, like a harpoon-powered wire thing or something that looks more permanent than popping a ladder atop the pit.)

Last edited by bey bey (2013-07-01 05:53:18)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#14 2013-07-01 05:58:59

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

That ladder is jammed in there good!  Gonna need to call a specialist for this...


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

Offline

#15 2013-07-01 07:03:48

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Can we walk over trapdoors in build mode already?

The planks is a really good idea!  My only concern is that it would make the trapdoor much harder to parse, visually, in the object picker for new players.  And then the planks would disappear as soon as you hit Done (for the self-test), which would also be confusing.  And then they'd instantly reappear back in the edit mode.

Also, this is just one small facet of the "can't walk around freely during build mode" problem.  It's not like crossable trapdoors will completely solve the problem.

Many versions ago, you were charged for each wall that you placed, even if you had to tear some down and rebuild them later.  This was more consistent, because you could never build anything for free, but it made building a house very touchy, and forced you to hit Undo all the time (very easy to make a hallway one tile over from where you actually want it and then have to tear it out).  So, I eventually implemented the current "difference accounting" system.  Doesn't make as much sense, but makes building much more care-free.


Re:  permanent ladders

Yeah, that's just the way the game works.  All damage is the same, and permanent.  That helps to balance the cost of the tool against the cost of the object that it destroys.  You can't remove a doorstop, either!

The one thing that can be removed is the drugged effect on a dog.  But that is auto-removed on the next self-test.  Would be weird for ladders or doorstops to auto-disappear like that.

At this point, I like how this quirk has become legendary (all the funny stories told about traumatized trapdoors, etc.)

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