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#1 2013-07-02 03:11:24

LockNess
Member
Registered: 2013-07-02
Posts: 8

One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Dear all alpha players,
And dear Developer,

I really enjoy this game and more generally the Jason's works. I'm on TDC since v8, I've read many posts here, and I also drafted many castles onto my office with carbon-made white papers and pencils smile

I had a dream a few nights ago (!) where I used to live in my own CastleDoctrinized home, I need to share a few thoughts with you. In other words, I'm writing here for mental sanity reasons. Well, and I confess, also for fun smile

Well the point is regarding the binary solving kitties dance.  I did my Engineering studies with electrical options so it's not difficult to create such puzzle based on XOR/NAND doors.  And because we do not have any possibility to obtain even a partial blueprint... Life for robbers who love challenges is not more fun.

For example, ath the present time, we have this Mister Taber and Mister Smith where we need to dance, sometimes on a trapfloor... Very disco, at a first glance, but in some way very annoying because it's no more a game: only a guess & try system without any intelligence.

And we all know who are the master of the world at this step : the cats.


Well I am just wondering : why not introduce an action or an object that could allow to invert for one turn the movement of the cats ? If an action, it could be a (randomly generated sound...) "whistling" box. If an object, a  small bird call ? Or simply some not-drugged cat food.

With such a tool, I hope an intelligent robber can hack a complex system without dying stupidly.

It's only an idea. The drawback I saw is that if the cats are all moving together, it may also cause some unwanted issues - like a change the dog position trick introduced in the last version.

Waiting for your feedbacks smile

Last edited by LockNess (2013-07-02 03:29:36)

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#2 2013-07-02 06:05:54

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Wow, the game has seeped in deep. big_smile

Idk. On the trapdoor dances, a tool like that would be ineffective imho, as you'd either already be dead or unwanted cat movement could kill you.

I keep coming back to the suggestion that animals should only move on sight (which makes more sense anyways).

It might have to be that only animals within the current frame of view are triggered, so it could be invisible but had to be close. Maybe that's the way to go about this. At least, the mechanics would have to be close, then. I like that idea. It would mean at least that with not too much cash one could cut one's way to the mechanics.

Last edited by bey bey (2013-07-02 06:06:22)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#3 2013-07-02 07:52:44

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

The idea of animals only moving when they see you would certainly eliminated magic dance security.

However, there would still be combo locks.  And regardless of what we eliminate, "one right path or die" dog mazes would always be possible.

So, no matter what, someone is going to be able to make security that requires exponential time to actually solve.  This was the realization that we came to over time, all the way up through blueprints (which revealed everything, but still didn't eliminate magic dances completely).

We could try stamping this or that out, and stamp a lot of it out.  But then some other technique would rise up to take its place.  Might as well keep the variety, in that case.

Essentially, if there are always going to be some houses that require cutting through, in practice.... one of the coolest houses to cut through is a magic dance house, where you peek into the secret room and try to figure out how it's working.

The other thing is that a simple magic dance is under-powered against a rich player.  You know, if there is a straight trapdoor path to the vault, enough ladders will safely cross that.  A more mysterious house with more uncertainty will be more risky for a rich player.

There is the fear that one house type will rise up and be the only viable type.  I think that tool price tweaking can help to prevent that over time (make ladders cheaper, for example, until some other house type is just as good).  I don't think we've seen enough yet to know one way or the other.

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#4 2013-07-02 08:12:34

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Well, I don't really see what a "line-of-sight"-rule would diminish in that. I don't mean direct vision, I mean in the sense that the current frame of view of the player is applied to animal movement! So they can be behind walls, just not across the map. Within the square of the map the player could potentially see.

It would even open up new possibilities; I have been playing with field of view at some points and it is a very interesting part of the game right now. (A player can "commit" just by wanting a peak.) It would just mean that having to cut through 50 concrete to see the mechanics was eliminated. I think that would be a good thing - you could always guess how much cash was needed to reach the dancing kitties and figure out what's happening there.

Also, the one-way-doggie labyrinths would become easier to cross since dog paths outside the frame of view wouldn't matter.

Two birds, one brick there.

Bit-locks could still exist, but they are easier to thwart since one can always just cut along the wires  (blowtorches are rather cheap) so they're not as big a problem imho.

That would make top houses more vulnerable and thus eliminate the problem that the only safe defense against top players seems to be brutal concrete and pits. And it would deal with the implausibility that a chihuahua is bothered by what happens behind 40 concrete blocks.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#5 2013-07-02 08:22:40

LockNess
Member
Registered: 2013-07-02
Posts: 8

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Thanks a lot for these answers !

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#6 2013-07-02 08:43:58

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Hmm.... well, that would mean they still might hear through 10 concrete walls?  I dunno, that seems too finicky to me.  Right now, the whole map steps every step according to the same rules.  What you're suggesting would mean that the on-screen portion of the map (even the invisible parts) would step separately from the off-screen parts.

If I was going to do it, I'd have them only move when they can see you.  Or at least start moving when they see you (like the family) and keep moving after that.  Then, you could still have a magic dance type thing, but it would have to involve at least some windows to kick it off.  That would leave a somewhat open path into the magic dance area, which would be like "following the wires" for a combo lock.

Hmmm.... that's sounding better and better!

Though.... it seems like this would require a full-world reset.... because houses like Taber's would become suddenly unsolvable with the new behavior...

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#7 2013-07-02 08:56:35

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Well, finicky it is, fair point. I'm kind of torn here, I like animals behind walls but the current state is stretching it too far. Smell only travels so far. I get a dog being upset behind one wall, or two, not 30 though. So the field of view seemed a natural choice with interesting potential.

But I'd be happy by animals being "awoken" by sight, which is quite obvious as a system. I'd definitely prefer something like that http://castlefortify.com/c/5ab921c over the current state. You'd know what you're up against and how much you need to get a peek. Even if it only meant that house owners would have to rewire their defenses constantly, that would be a price to pay for this type of security.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#8 2013-07-02 09:04:01

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Okay, in that case, I see Boone coming in with way more tools than he needs (but who knew?  The house hadn't been explored yet), and stealing $95 after ruining some electric floors.

Then you repair the floors, which scares Coleman away and kills Lara and scares Braddock away.

Then you steal a bunch of money.  Then you're gone!  Did you die in a self-test?

So, no dumping there.

Maybe what you're recalling is the end of your life in the top house that was beaten by Taber?  I do see some stuff that looks like tool dumping there (where they may dump tools in your vault by reaching it, and then go home and suicide, and then come back to get the tools).  But that kind of dumping only works if you can easily get to the vault, which is less of a problem.

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#9 2013-07-02 09:11:05

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Odd - I see K.M. Noland coming with one saw, taking the cash, returning with lots of tools taking only 50 bucks. Then somebody else takes the spoils. (2k) Same thing happens again with W.P. Rodriguez and V. A. Rice: Both come for cash, return with tools leaving them for a meagre 50 bucks, then somebody else shows up and takes the spoils (~3k) - looks like dumping to me.

It was definitely in the new house. I died because I stepped into a house where a pitbull was hidden underneath a kid and got me and had to start over. (facepalm)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#10 2013-07-02 10:00:56

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Oh, man!  I guess I didn't scroll down enough in your current tape list to see those.  Sorry about that.

To make matters worse, I replied in the wrong thread!

Anyway....

Yes, I do see what you're talking about now.  Does look like Noland dumped tools, and Coleman got them.  Funny thing, though, is that Coleman was a different player!  That was about 20 seconds later.... so, another player nabbed them.

Then 20 seconds after that, Noland comes back as Gilmore and dumps more tools.  Then comes back as Rodriguez, Rice, and finally Wolfson, dumping and grabbing a bigger tool-ball each time before stopping.

Funny, though.... after all this, Coleman comes into Wolfson's house and steals the tool ball!

Still, it looks like this kind of tool dumping in a broken house is worth doing, generally.  Also, it's a bit weird to dump tools in the vault at the end of a big robbery and know that you can just waltz back in and get them later (though that does prevent vandalism somewhat, because you don't want to waste tools).

One fix would be if tools only build up in a house upon death of the robber.  When you reach the vault, all tools left over are ditched.  That would prevent any and all quick-turnover tool-dumping....  Essentially, there should be no "get rich quick" grinding loophole of any kind.

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#11 2013-07-02 10:38:00

nathan
Member
From: A ditch somewhere
Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 61

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

bey bey wrote:

you could always guess how much cash was needed to reach the dancing kitties and figure out what's happening there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaA_cs4WZHM


"I just robbed Mr. Rogers." -Ludicrosity "The wood is my desk, and I'm knocking it with my head." -Blip
"I'd rather pack 25 meats than 1 crowbar if you know what I mean..." -Jabloko
"This is one of the most disturbed things I have seen in quite a while. I blame global warming." -bey bey
"that seems like more resources than I'm willing to put into having my kids killed." -cbenny

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#12 2013-07-02 10:42:45

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: One suggestion for our lovely kitties

Yeah, it was funny finding this in the wrong thread, but fair enough, the animals got their own thread now. wink

Yeah, I was thinking "dual accounts" for a minute but then again, in V9 I happened upon a stash of 30k by accident once which was rather sweet, so it might have just been lots of vultures circling above a very small pasture.

The tools being dumped in the safe isn't a bad thing in one respect, that you get something to repair your house with if it's one-time robbable. Vandalism does occur anyways, say you drugged a few dogs on the way and know you probably wont be able to return for your tools. Or just to blow off some steam after a tense robbery, idk. Or to take out the competition permanently (Taber). Cut up all the wires etc.

If your tools are definitely lost but damages saved, vandalism should go up I think since you know you'll either use them or use them so you'd need more good will than players of this game usually display. wink

I'd say that in the current economy, it's not a big problem. If somebody scratches together 5k this way but not 40 as before, then there's nothing much to worry about. Waiting for starting-layout-houses to appear gives you more cash at the moment.


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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