Version 12 Released

jasonrohrer · 2013-07-04 11:14:36

This release changes animal behavior so that they do not start moving until they have seen you. After that, they switch to their normal following or fleeing behavior, even if they can no longer see you. Thus, they can still follow you from behind walls, but only after they have seen you.

This is a tiny change, but the impact on house design is huge, because animals can no longer move mysteriously and invisibly behind walls to trigger switches. They must be visible at least once to the robber before they can start doing this.

As a result, all houses have been taken out of circulation until their owners re-edit them to work with the new behavior.

Blip · 2013-07-04 12:18:29

Great update. Just one question: can an animal see you from across the map, or do you need to be a certain proximity from them for them to start following you? Because if they can see you from across the map, there will just be a 30-long line of pits before a window for a magic dance.

bey bey · 2013-07-04 12:23:14

From how I tested it, an animal sees you once you see it. (As with the wife etc.)

I don't quite know how it works with corners though.

jasonrohrer · 2013-07-04 12:29:40

Yeah, it only sees you when you see it . If it's off-screen, it can't see you, even if you technically have a line of sight to it down a long hallway.

It's a little ambiguous around corners, because the visibility fog has a soft edge. But essentially, if you can see the animal relatively clearly (like, it is more that 50% past the "edge" of the fog), then it will start moving.

Warl0ck · 2013-07-04 12:51:39

Hi, Jason.

I've only discovered the forum after this update, and decided to create an account to say a couple of things.

This is slightly off topic, but i'd like to begin by saying that I have HUGE respect for you because you've succeeded in making a great game.
I really enjoyed playing Castle Doctrine, especially the earlier versions (prior to the introduction of blueprints).
It's not that I've ever built a combination lock, the game was just at its best back then (IMO).

Now back to the topic.
To be honest, this update has taken away the last moments of joy i've had in the game.
Here is my reasoning (please note, that all of the below is just my humble opinion):
* Building mazes and traps is awesome, while creating puzzles is not.
* Solving puzzles (particularly, the ones relying on animals in sight) is even worse.
* Lack of ability to react to players movements in a secret way renders the absolute majority of more or less elaborate traps unusable.
More than that - it renders some of the most commonly built types of traps useless.
* Finally, I'm lazy. There's a limit to the complexity of stuff i'm building,
and all the trap designs i've managed to come up with after the update are either too complicated, or fall before the mighty 2$ brick.

Therefore, I don't think I'll be playing anymore.
It's sad, but given the wide consensus on certain topics that the forum displays, the community will probably be better off without me or, for that matter, people like me.

Thanks for all the fun I've had in your awesome game. No hard feelings.

P.S.: Also, please know, that I'm not writing this in order to demand some changes or something like that. Just saying good bye.

jasonrohrer · 2013-07-04 13:42:09

From the point of view of the robber, it is not very interesting to dance around in front of 20-thick concrete and metal walls while invisible animals do who-knows-what back there.

Thus, such a setup isn't really a "trap," because anyone with enough sense will steer clear until they save up enough explosives to cut through the concrete shell and bypass the thing. And as a bypassable thing, it's not very interesting, because there's no information about WHERE you should try cutting first.

If your concrete shell is forced to have a weakness, on the other hand, it's more interesting to both work through (using the information you can see through the window) or cut through (by treating the window as a weak entry point into the guts of the thing).

In terms of some trap being bypassed by a $2 brick, well, what if you can't walk back there safely without killing or trapping yourself?

Yes, it is hard to build something really secure for $2000, but that's intentional. You can work your way up to better security over time.

Many versions ago (before blueprints), it was possible to build an uncrackable security system (through a combination of electric floors and hidden animal movements) for only $1400. If you can do that, and so can everyone else, then what's the point of playing? Everyone builds a house that cannot be broken, and then the game ends.

After all, this is a game about being forever vulnerable. Even the richest, most powerful player should fall eventually.

I hope you'll give the game another try, and stick around to see where it goes from here.

colorfusion · 2013-07-04 14:15:16

jasonrohrer wrote:

In terms of some trap being bypassed by a $2 brick, well, what if you can't walk back there safely without killing or trapping yourself?

From what I understand the only way that you could have hidden triggers or timers is with animals, so now that you have to have sight to animals for them to function, something like this wouldn't really be possible anymore (or atleast not without it being able to be broken with about $12 worth of tools).

I generally think this update is good though, pretty much completely wrecks magic dances, and combo locks are already weak. I don't necessarily like that robbers can see everything that is activated now though (or get to it with a few bricks), no more locking them in or sending dogs after them.

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-07-04 14:20:41)

segarch · 2013-07-04 15:01:33

Just finished playing for a few - here's my reaction.

Certainly a few unhappy mappers out there! I get the impression that this latest change represents such a huge shift, that it's going to take sometime for the builders to figure out new strategies. But I gotta say, this time around I feel more like a robber this time around than a doomed victim. Now any trap that has puzzle elements leaks information that you can study visually. This resulted in one of the more pleasurable robberies I've had, where I actually felt like I solved a puzzle by observing my environment carefully. That just wasn't possible before.

Dying also feels more like my own fault, and not being able to go back in to a house you died still feels like a fitting punishment.

K, that's all the random thoughts for now. Really curious to see how people adapt.

Last edited by segarch (2013-07-04 15:02:22)

Blip · 2013-07-04 15:25:34

It seems quite difficult to adapt to the new design, but I agree that it gives the robber more control. Currently, my house is just a version of a v11 house I was working on with windows added, so right now it's not too good for vault protection. I've been working to iron out some of the problems it's been having, and have gotten a couple kills and only been robbed successfully once. It'll be interesting to see what designs start appearing later on; I predict that using complex wiring might come back, at least partially. For example, switches attached to complex wiring can do things that they normally wouldn't, easily trapping a robber. I think that this will help the building side of the game flourish, as the simple tactic of hidden dogs isn't usable, and builders have to come up with new tricks to keep robbers out.

As for the robbing side of things, I haven't been taking many risks lately because of my established house, which cost a good chunk of cash, and my paintings, which I don't want to lose due to a stupid death. Once I die I'll probably try some harder robberies. I will say, from what I've seen, that I feel more empowered as a robber; I can see the dogs that the house utilizes, and try to solve the puzzles in the house from the inside. That is what I think the game should be about in the first place: not being trapped inside a machine that triggers stuff as you walk around without you knowing, but also not about being able to choose your moves ahead of time (as it was from v6-v8). Instead, the robber has to think on their feet, seeing parts of trap systems and having a chance to get in and sabotage them.

jasonrohrer · 2013-07-04 16:41:27

Well, this is all sounding pretty good.

Something I've always found interesting---but seen very little use---are wired walls as cut detectors. If the power that holds the trap doors open leading to your vault is routed through a long wall that protects other parts of your security, you can't cut the wall without blocking your access to the vault.

Obviously, cut walls can be used to trigger other things as well (releasing dogs, etc.)

Would it be interesting (and maybe overpowered) if there were wired windows that functioned the same way? Overpowered, because a "cut this window and die in the trapdoor you're standing on" would become an obvious combo...

Also, doesn't something like this work to "protect" the cat behind the window?

http://castlefortify.com/c/177a65b

Cat is out-of-reach for a brick, but still visible. Obviously, that magic dance doesn't work without longer hallways.... just trying to give the idea of hidden buttons that the cat would run to.

largestherb · 2013-07-04 17:00:24

figured out how to do a new HALLWAY OF TRAPDOORS already. lets see if i can make a quick visual explanation..

http://castlefortify.com/c/2c2e2a3

there, without giving out any kind of proper working idea, something like this will be my next death-fun house

Last edited by largestherb (2013-07-04 17:01:14)

bey bey · 2013-07-04 17:14:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, this is all sounding pretty good.
Something I've always found interesting---but seen very little use---are wired walls as cut detectors. If the power that holds the trap doors open leading to your vault is routed through a long wall that protects other parts of your security, you can't cut the wall without blocking your access to the vault.
Obviously, cut walls can be used to trigger other things as well (releasing dogs, etc.)
Would it be interesting (and maybe overpowered) if there were wired windows that functioned the same way? Overpowered, because a "cut this window and die in the trapdoor you're standing on" would become an obvious combo...
Also, doesn't something like this work to "protect" the cat behind the window?
http://castlefortify.com/c/177a65b
Cat is out-of-reach for a brick, but still visible. Obviously, that magic dance doesn't work without longer hallways.... just trying to give the idea of hidden buttons that the cat would run to.

I used to do the wired wall thing at certain points. I more often did it with electric floors - break one, break the thing. What I don't get about your design is how one would use the cat to do the dance in this thing. Once you're one step behind it will keep running away uncontrollably, wont it? It would have to be a lot more complex. Once the current prototype falls I'll try doing something like that but it seems very tricky to manage to me. I can only see it working with lots of other elements and I have my doubts about it.

Last edited by bey bey (2013-07-04 17:14:42)

largestherb · 2013-07-04 17:31:34

bey bey wrote:

I used to do the wired wall thing at certain points. I more often did it with electric floors - break one, break the thing. What I don't get about your design is how one would use the cat to do the dance in this thing. Once you're one step behind it will keep running away uncontrollably, wont it? It would have to be a lot more complex. Once the current prototype falls I'll try doing something like that but it seems very tricky to manage to me. I can only see it working with lots of other elements and I have my doubts about it.

since the cat runs indefinitely, all you need is a few buttons on the players side that have to be pushed at the right time in the right order (heck, one button that provides power on/off (double heck, one button that provides power on/on/off/off in a weird voltage switch fun)) to guide the cat safely across a deadly field of traps and doors and grids and junk, to safely hit the button at the end.

i don't think it is terribly difficult to accomplish, and it doesn't really solve the invisible logic that this change was perhaps aiming at shaving out (animals wandering off and doing who knows what behind a wall)

bey bey · 2013-07-04 17:44:44

Fair enough. You could even do it with just one button and electronics. Then again, the good thing about the whole change is that seeing distance equals cutting distance, so the first thing I'd probably do is cut to the cat (who is already blissfully demised) and check out the logic. Might of course get a bit nasty if it involves lots of pits etc, but it's easier accessible than it used to be before.

Then again, have the cat run across a bunch of trapdoors towards the top first which it unpowers at the end, then you'll be golden.

This leads to something I've thought for a while: guns should shoot through windows. So you could at least take out the cat.

Edit: then again, you can always just bring a brick and a gun and take out the cat anyways if I get the mechanics correctly (seeing the cat only triggers it but it doesn't take a step immediately).

Last edited by bey bey (2013-07-04 17:46:22)

largestherb · 2013-07-04 18:14:57

but you want the kitty alive

let me run up a quick thingy example

~

Last edited by largestherb (2013-07-05 03:31:40)

Ludicrosity · 2013-07-04 21:03:04

Warl0ck wrote:

To be honest, this update has taken away the last moments of joy i've had in the game.
Here is my reasoning (please note, that all of the below is just my humble opinion):
* Building mazes and traps is awesome, while creating puzzles is not.
* Solving puzzles (particularly, the ones relying on animals in sight) is even worse.
* Lack of ability to react to players movements in a secret way renders the absolute majority of more or less elaborate traps unusable.
More than that - it renders some of the most commonly built types of traps useless.
* Finally, I'm lazy. There's a limit to the complexity of stuff i'm building,
and all the trap designs i've managed to come up with after the update are either too complicated, or fall before the mighty 2$ brick.

Hi Warl0ck, welcome to the forum. I must admit that I'm quite confused by your post though. As far as I can tell, the new update only strengthens the very aspects you seem to desire. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say that the new rules make elaborate traps unusable. I don't see how traps (certainly elaborate ones) that were possible in v11 will not be possible in v12. You just need to be a bit more careful in designing them, and they may be a bit more vulnerable to robbers, which is completely fair in my view.

Also, if you don't want someone to get through a window using only a $2 brick but you need an animal to be visible, just place a pit or something in front. Doesn't that solve it?

colorfusion · 2013-07-05 08:09:14

Like Jason suggested with "wired windows" I think electric floor could possibly already be used in this way. Have it on by default as part of the chain powering something important, and then just have the cats or dogs behind that.
Example: http://castlefortify.com/c/dd94f47
If they break anything to get to the magic dance part then they've cut off power to it.

jasonrohrer · 2013-07-05 14:45:46

Oh, yeah, good point! Electric floor (as crucial part of wiring) in front of a window (to keep the animal away from the electric floor) is a nice combo to protect the animal back there, assuming the animal is out of reach for a brick. But even if you get back there, you've already cut off power to the trap, so you're stuck (you can still study what's back there, but even if it's just buttons, you can't trigger then all yourself and then come out and get to the vault).

Thus, it's not true that a "$2 brick can bypass any trap". Also, there's the idea of pit in front of a window.

My example above should replace the cat with a dog, and add another window to prevent the dog from running up the "viewing hallway" and getting stuck. I built a nice trap like this today with the starting budget. Cut any wires, and lock yourself out of the vault. But then I died foolishly in someone else's house. Must carry drugged meat at all times.

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