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#1 2013-08-21 08:17:41

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Salary calculation changed

You now earn salary on a sliding scale, depending on your house value.

Salary goes up linearly for houses with value between $0 and $10,000, and then becomes constant after that.

The cap is the same ($140 for the wife, $70 for you).  So, a house that has $5000 earns $70 for the wife and $35 for you.

This change is intended to make life a bit easier for new players, because their low-value houses won't become "worth robbing" quite as quickly.

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#2 2013-08-21 08:57:14

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: Salary calculation changed

While I'm sure this will help, Both major robberies that I've suffered(while actually building a real house) and most that I've perpetrated happened for less than 5 hundred in change. I doubt most people play this game for the sake of cost efficiency above all else XD Many people just enjoy devouring puzzles that aren't hidden behind six walls of concrete, or they just want something they can smash easily, and most rich players houses tend to lack both those appeals. In fact the primary perpetrators of these crimes are usually starter smashers, not richies, people who while waiting for that big heist to kickstart their house entertain themselves by throwing money (that means nothing to them) at lesser problems ) :. The whole starter smasher mentality as a whole is kinda meh, and it's ironic that a game that prides itself on it's perma death bears such little consequences for this style of play. Would it really be so bad to incorporate two kinds of money? It would give starter smashers a sense that they're just throwing so much away (4000 in solely defensive income, vs 2000 in aggresive) everytime they start over, and it would give new players the means to really put something together without the need for a lucky break. In general it would encourage the player to play both sides of the game.

Above all, I think the biggest flaw with this change is that it assumes that players can be reasoned into not being dicks XD. You already have a fantastic small community, of exceptionally nice brilliant people hungry for a challenge. And they're still at each others throats constantly. When the game does get bigger (which it will, cause it's awesome) that problem will only get worse. The only reasonable solution(aside from penalizing even more so upon death, which is meh) I can see is to ensure a sense of loss for people who try to just blow 2000 and then respawn and do it all over again ) :. And a large solely defensive pool of cash that would be effectively wasted on each revive seems like a good way to do just that. Has it ever been tested in game yet?

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#3 2013-08-21 10:20:08

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Salary calculation changed

I agree that this might be a problem.

I've avoided making "two kinds of money" because it is inelegant.  Money is money in this game.  That's a very natural way for it to work, and is really "how it should be."  If money is not legal tender for all debts public and private, then it needs explaining, extra displays, and other messy stuff.

I also want people to be able to choose what they do when they respawn.  I do like having some people in the game that have "nothing to lose" because of the way that it mirrors real social systems.

I've worked on other ways to deal with this problem, like the "chill" that is put on a house if you die there (so you can't just respawn over and over and keep grinding your way through the same house until you figure it out---you at least have to think each time).  This was a major improvement.

Also, I believe that this "balance" can be tweaked by adjusting the ratio between tool cost and house tile cost.  This is essentially infinitely adjustable.  However, I've been busy working on other stuff, so I haven't adjusted this much at all yet.  At some point I will.

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#4 2013-08-21 10:26:02

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Salary calculation changed

Couple questions: a $0 house earns $0 right? If so, that's actually rather brilliant. It not only helps new players survive the night (e.g. leave $200 and wake up with only $500 instead of $10,280), but it also discourages the middle/upper classes from spending down to $0 because then they'd no longer get income. Spending down to $0 was a huge concern of mine early on. Thus, the optimal way to maximize salary now is to leave a lucrative payout in the safe. This and the 5 minute delay sound like great changes.

The second question: is the salary rounded up or down? Put another way, does a $1 house earn $1 or $0?


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#5 2013-08-21 10:46:21

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: Salary calculation changed

Interesting and odd thing to do, but why not. (Not ALL that more elegant than say different kinds of money. wink )

I really wonder though if this won't dry up the cashflow in the game. Simply since it makes a lot of sense to bring your house down to zero rather than be a target, so that source dries up. Or even worse: after there has been a robbery and all the houses are only stacked with about 10$, you're left with 0 cash and no chance of getting any apart from 2k jackpot houses.

edit: this of course makes it A LOT more important to keep your wife alive!

I'm really looking forward to what will happen now. big_smile

Last edited by bey bey (2013-08-21 10:48:26)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#6 2013-08-21 10:58:53

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Salary calculation changed

Not sure how I feel about this. Yes, there's added protection, but I can often get a house to survive the first night with the current salary anyway. Also, at times when the house list is filled with magic dance houses, my salary is the main source of money to build with, and it might be boring to take it away; you don't have the money to rob a house that can only be brute-forced, so you can't build with stolen money, but you also are earning so little that you don't get any building money there either.

Maybe using salary to build with isn't supposed to be a part of the game, but I'm worried that this change might stagnate the economy. If it doesn't harm cashflow, it's a good fix, as it helps newer players.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
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#7 2013-08-21 11:11:51

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: Salary calculation changed

jasonrohrer wrote:

I agree that this might be a problem.

I've avoided making "two kinds of money" because it is inelegant.  Money is money in this game.  That's a very natural way for it to work, and is really "how it should be."  If money is not legal tender for all debts public and private, then it needs explaining, extra displays, and other messy stuff.

I also want people to be able to choose what they do when they respawn.  I do like having some people in the game that have "nothing to lose" because of the way that it mirrors real social systems.

I've worked on other ways to deal with this problem, like the "chill" that is put on a house if you die there (so you can't just respawn over and over and keep grinding your way through the same house until you figure it out---you at least have to think each time).  This was a major improvement.

Also, I believe that this "balance" can be tweaked by adjusting the ratio between tool cost and house tile cost.  This is essentially infinitely adjustable.  However, I've been busy working on other stuff, so I haven't adjusted this much at all yet.  At some point I will.

It's your game XD and it's an awesome one at that, so do watcha gotta do, I'd just like to point out though that you already have 2 forms of income. (wife money and safe money) That already requires explaining, and it's a very small step from there to officially divide the two, a small step that may have considerable positive effects on the way we play(or negative, who knows). Out of curiosity, with the salary nerf to new players, how do you see a new player gaining his start? Is the only real way(not including cheap stuff like snatching someones starter cash, which you've already  discouraged with the 5 min change) a big successful heist? I mean your clearly not encouraging a new player to invest his 2000 in a house, cause it no longer makes any real money. Doesn't this limit game play by forcing all new players into that desperate situation (of grasping at the rich players heels) that you feel adds variety? I will say though thats it's pretty funny how much this game is beginning to resemble an analogue for the whole 99 vs 1 percent conflict XD.

Also I dont think I've heard yet how you feel about the whole easy safe strat. Do you think it has a place in the game or do you just have more pressing concerns to deal with first?

Last edited by gumshoe (2013-08-21 11:13:02)

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#8 2013-08-21 12:29:31

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Salary calculation changed

Yeah, you know.... I made this change because someone was complaining about not being able to survive the night, ever, because too much money would build up in the house while the player was away, tempting even a rich player to break through the house with a lot of tools.

We'll see how this change goes.  Not hard to rip it out later (it's all server-side).

But for some historical perspective:  houses earning regular money, of any kind, was added NOT to help the owners of those houses, but to make the houses gradually more attractive to robbers.  Otherwise, it was possible for a house to sit at the bottom forever if it wasn't worth robbing.  Now all houses become worth robbing eventually.  I hadn't thought about what happens when someone spends down to $0.  I guess that's a safe way to leave a house for the night...  I'm really not sure what's going to happen here.  I'll keep a close eye on it.

Easy safe strat is interesting.  I generally like it.... an emergent thing that people are doing, and it's thematically rich ("take whatever you want, just don't hurt my family").

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#9 2013-08-21 12:42:26

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Salary calculation changed

Actually, I just changed this on the server so that every house ALWAYS earn at least 10% of the max salary, even if it has been spent down to $0 by the owner.  I was already noticing some people spending down to $0 and then just having their houses sit there, hidden from the list.

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#10 2013-08-21 21:36:23

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: Salary calculation changed

Wait, when you say "house value" do you mean the amount of money spent building the house or the amount of money in the vault?

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#11 2013-08-21 22:58:30

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Salary calculation changed

I know was for these changes initially, but with v16 it just means that you have a longer period to survive through where your house is vulnerable to suicidal $2000 wife killers that don't give a damn how much is in your vault. It takes so long to time build enough money to properly defend your wife now.

I know it would be harder to implement, but a salary that you can vary yourself would fix this issue (even it was just a choice between a full wage and a low wage). Then you could use the full wage to get your house somewhat safe to $2000 raids and then leave it with a lower wage overnight so it doesn't become easy money for those rich enough to brute force you. Also, I think the income should be based on how expensive your house is, not how much you have in your vault. Otherwise rich players can just keep spending down to $0 and then leave there house for ages before it is worth robbing.

Last edited by joshwithguitar (2013-08-21 23:05:12)

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#12 2013-08-21 23:17:22

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Salary calculation changed

Jason, for now can you just increase the minimum wage a bit?

$21 an hour is tiny.

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#13 2013-08-22 03:29:31

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Salary calculation changed

I think you should also consider taking into account the intrinsic value of the house (the bricks and mortar).

Thus a beginner house of <$2000 would have a meagre earn rate calculated, and an established house valued at $10,000 odd (again, I am talking the raw elements, walls, traps, etc. and not just vault/wife money) would attract a higher income level.  Perhaps paintings value are also taken into account, based on original purchase amount.

This stops the established houses continually pushing themselves down to $0 by adding elements/paintings, so they are constantly a target.

So the house income bracket would be calculated as:

MONEY/TOOLS + BRICKS & MORTAR VALUE = INCOME BRACKET

N.B. I would also think that broken elements such as laddered trapdoors, dead dogs, broken walls, etc., would not be considered when calculating house value.

Last edited by dalleck (2013-08-22 05:19:31)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#14 2013-08-22 04:44:23

AGO
Member
Registered: 2013-08-06
Posts: 10

Re: Salary calculation changed

How do you download the new version? Seems like it should be obvious on how to do that.

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#15 2013-08-22 04:47:28

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Salary calculation changed

AGO wrote:

How do you download the new version? Seems like it should be obvious on how to do that.

Use the same link you used to originally download it.

http://thecastledoctrine.net/ts/server. … -XXXX-XXXX, but with your code where the X's are.

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#16 2013-08-22 07:05:08

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Salary calculation changed

Well, I want to avoid anything too complicated with the salary.  Picking your own gives players too much control over their own fate, I think.

For now, I'm going to raise the minimum and see if that helps.

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#17 2013-08-22 07:12:01

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Salary calculation changed

Okay, minimum salary is now 50% of the max salary.  Thus, you now earn max salary when you have $5000 or more, and earn half that when you have $0.

Also, yes, this is based on how much robbable value you have, not based on brick-and-mortar value of your house.

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