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#76 2013-08-21 17:35:19

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

jere wrote:

XD

gumshoe, I'll agree with you that defenses are way underpowered at this point, but.... you have a problem. this "XD" thing has got to stop.

I cant stop, it's a built in habit now, decades old. XD

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#77 2013-08-21 17:37:02

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

jere wrote:

XD

gumshoe, I'll agree with you that defenses are way underpowered at this point, but.... you have a problem. this "XD" thing has got to stop.

I was pretty sure you were gonna say my problem is that I have a compulsion to beat all the wives, or that I'm unwilling to allow people to get their houses off the ground. But nope, it's the ex dee that bothers you XD

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#78 2013-08-21 17:47:58

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Oh, hmm, really? I thought that was new. I actually had to look it up. It's excessive! smile

Anyway, "None found" is not really the kind of message you ever want to see in an MMO. I still think this is inevitable. It's simple math. n is the number of houses each person successfully robs on average for each house they submit. For n > 1 (which it is now), a handful players get to rob a whole bunch and the neighborhood is wiped out. For n < 1, such as when defenses are overpowered, the list might fill up, but it's because most people can't rob at all and a huge part of the game is missing and they get bored. If everything is extremely well balanced, we might see n ~ 1. That's still kind of boring for most robbers and the house list will only stay populated if there's plenty of active players. Tweaking offensive and defense doesn't get you out of this trap.


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#79 2013-08-21 17:58:06

bey bey
Member
Registered: 2013-04-20
Posts: 386

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Yeah, I think I'll sit out v16. I can't for the life of me imagine anything remotely interesting happening, and I really don't want to get into the deeper electronics of how to wire something according to new rules so it's still impenetrable. I might check in occasionally to see if I was wrong, but all this sounds more like I was right...

edit: I enjoy playing this http://castledraft.com/editor/tOsT8L , not this http://castledraft.com/editor/lfrzL5 (no offense!)

Last edited by bey bey (2013-08-21 18:10:22)


In fact you can be batman.
(if he robbed houses and murdered families.)
- Dalleck

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#80 2013-08-21 18:42:02

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Why not make it so that only wired wooden walls transfer electricity? Looking back now, it was brilliant how if I destroyed a wall segment while cutting into a house to figure it out, the entire house would shut down. I wouldnt be able to scout it and beat it in the same run (I really loved the jhonson house). The problem was it took way too much money to cut through the metal walls to find the source. If only the weakest walls carry electricity, I think well see alot more of that interesting gameplay from before albiet it'll be easier to find out how it all works. Also I gotta say, there was something beautiful about watching 10 doors or 50 pits slam shut or burst open at the same time ) :. I dont think the combinations themselves were really broken, it was the inability to ascertain what was going on that was the problem.

All these drastic changes are really brutal. All you really need I think is a) to make wooden wired walls the only ones capable of passing energy. and b) perhaps a kind of animal dart that allows you to see from an animals perspective, but when you move around it's still you moving(so you could still fall into a pit if your not careful).

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#81 2013-08-21 19:40:44

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Okay, you or somebody else spent $2000 to rob me for $80. That's ridiculous! Currently, $2000 is so more powerful as tools than as a house that it's hurting the game. Unless that changes, I'm probably going to be taking a break after my house falls, because I don't feel like I'm going to have a chance to build anything new before it gets destroyed by people's new lives that they're just throwing away to irk others, instead of using them for any legitimate reason to further their position in the game.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#82 2013-08-21 19:48:16

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Blip wrote:

Okay, you or somebody else spent $2000 to rob me for $80. That's ridiculous! Currently, $2000 is so more powerful as tools than as a house that it's hurting the game. Unless that changes, I'm probably going to be taking a break after my house falls, because I don't feel like I'm going to have a chance to build anything new before it gets destroyed by people's new lives that they're just throwing away to irk others, instead of using them for any legitimate reason to further their position in the game.

Yeah, sorry about that / : I think I proved my point, so I'm gonna back off other houses for awhile.

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#83 2013-08-21 21:29:52

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Come to the dark side of simply putting your vault by the door. He tore down my v16 vault-by-the-door house #1, but I just immediately built another (#2). And as soon as you pile up a few extra layers of concrete, it's beyond the reach of fresh starts with only $2000.

Last edited by Ludicrosity (2013-08-21 21:34:13)

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#84 2013-08-21 21:31:18

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

gumshoe wrote:

Why not make it so that only wired wooden walls transfer electricity? Looking back now, it was brilliant how if I destroyed a wall segment while cutting into a house to figure it out, the entire house would shut down. I wouldnt be able to scout it and beat it in the same run (I really loved the jhonson house). The problem was it took way too much money to cut through the metal walls to find the source. If only the weakest walls carry electricity, I think well see alot more of that interesting gameplay from before albiet it'll be easier to find out how it all works. Also I gotta say, there was something beautiful about watching 10 doors or 50 pits slam shut or burst open at the same time ) :. I dont think the combinations themselves were really broken, it was the inability to ascertain what was going on that was the problem.

I do think this sounds like a potentially promising idea.

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#85 2013-08-22 07:41:15

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Just doubled tool prices.  We'll see where that takes us.

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#86 2013-08-22 10:53:09

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

jasonrohrer wrote:

Just doubled tool prices.  We'll see where that takes us.

Not especially far it seems. I think more importantly some tiles need to be reduced based off whats changed.  The nerf on power has been titanic, 100-50 dollar power cells seems like a necessary change to get a house going considering how it's nearly impossible now to viably get electricity to travel long distances. Trap doors should be reduced to 100(they were nerfed the second hardest), pits to 75(gonna need lots more of these). Walls are fine as is, so are electric fences and doors. Oh and I still reccomend bringing back wired wooden walls. As for Tool prices, guns were fine at 1000, and I think wall crackers should be reduced back to normal (ie 100 300 500) you were already paying 10 times a walls worth to crack it, the only people this change really helps are rich players and easy safe players (a strategy which while fine, should not be the only one possible) that or you could go through with the wired wooden wall caveat, so that metal walls and brick walls could stay at 600 and 1000, but a saw would remain at 100(alowing a player to almost always be able to cut thier way into someones grid, but this way wiring wouldn't have to just be out there in the open or only over a pit). Ladders could be brought down to 1000 (so you can afford at least 2, having them at 1200 is sorta odd). 200 dollar crowbar is ok, 40 dollar meat is solid, maybe round it up to 50. Water should be at 25 / : harsh but otherwise electric fences are kinda just jokes now.

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#87 2013-08-22 12:24:40

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

You know what they say about electric fences...

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#88 2013-08-22 12:55:24

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

what do they say?

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#89 2013-08-22 12:58:36

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Like, doors require a 200 hit, even wires require 200 XD. Why do fences go down for just 4? I think 100 or 50 would be fine and replace the item (instead maybe use a carpet?) to have it make sense. It's just kind of silly that our best defence right now is as cheap to deal with as a window...

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#90 2013-08-22 13:42:03

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

I will tweak relative prices (how much water costs relative to explosives) later.  Right now, I'm just trying to get the general level right.  Essentially:  what should you be able to afford to break through as a starting robber for $2000?

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#91 2013-08-22 14:13:49

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

I think bieng able to just afford a crow bar or two and basic stuff with starter cash is pretty good. Generally aiming to make stuff like ladders and explosives a bigger deal will probally steer the game in the right direction.

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#92 2013-08-22 14:16:15

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

I think what you can get with starting cash to scout a house with is good at the moment, although it seems a bit extreme when you're using money that you earned or robbed rather than the disposable $2000 on suicide accounts. For any house right now it will take over 38 hours to get a single gun, which will kill a single pitbull in a house which is probably full of them.

Maybe lower starting cash, then lower tool prices and significantly lower house block prices?

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-08-22 14:19:48)

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#93 2013-08-22 14:21:49

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

colorfusion wrote:

I think what you can get with starting cash to scout a house with is good at the moment, although it seems a bit extreme when you're using money that you earned or robbed rather than the disposable $2000 on suicide accounts.

Yeah / : I think the best counter to this is to dramatically raise overall salary for houses that survive / : which I think is happening anyways. What if older houses made more money?

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#94 2013-08-22 14:27:25

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

gumshoe wrote:
colorfusion wrote:

I think what you can get with starting cash to scout a house with is good at the moment, although it seems a bit extreme when you're using money that you earned or robbed rather than the disposable $2000 on suicide accounts.

Yeah / : I think the best counter to this is to dramatically raise overall salary for houses that survive / : which I think is happening anyways. What if older houses made more money?

Yeah, raising salary or decreasing everything else would pretty much have the same effect, although for slight realism I think decreasing tool prices might fit in a bit better.

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#95 2013-08-22 14:47:59

nathan
Member
From: A ditch somewhere
Registered: 2013-06-15
Posts: 61

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Ludicrosity wrote:

You know what they say about electric fences...

Don't pee on them?


"I just robbed Mr. Rogers." -Ludicrosity "The wood is my desk, and I'm knocking it with my head." -Blip
"I'd rather pack 25 meats than 1 crowbar if you know what I mean..." -Jabloko
"This is one of the most disturbed things I have seen in quite a while. I blame global warming." -bey bey
"that seems like more resources than I'm willing to put into having my kids killed." -cbenny

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#96 2013-08-22 16:19:25

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

With 4x tool prices we are starting to see a lot more interesting houses - smile. I guess one pitbull now is a pretty good wife defence on its own.

One time robbable houses have become completely OP now though: "What's that? There is a pitbull and a broken pit trap in the way of my vault? That'll only cost $6400 to bypass (only to find my second pitbull, bring $10,400 next time!). Oh, and yes I do plan to leave my house like that while I happily earn my salary."

Perhaps once broken houses should get a smaller income?

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#97 2013-08-22 17:06:50

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

Also, it seems you can still buy paintings with a broken house.

Oh, and you can even rob other houses while yours is broken (just wait for time-out to eject you from your house). You can't buy tools though.

Last edited by joshwithguitar (2013-08-22 19:17:22)

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#98 2013-08-22 20:16:50

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: A proposal that needs feedback

At this point, I'm just watching to see how things shake out.  Interesting stuff happening right now.

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