Experimental, Ridiculous Pricing

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-23 12:33:41

I'm testing out new pricing for tools and house tiles. This is wacky and experimental, where prices don't make any real-world sense.

The idea is to have four "tiers" of affordability in house tiles to foster variety. What can you easily afford as a fresh-start player? What can you barely afford? What can you only afford as a wealthy player?

Then, have a fixed ratio for bypass costs that applies equally to everything. More expensive obstacle means a more expensive tool is needed to cross it. This causes the same tiered structure to be mirrored in the tool pricing.

Finally, the new pricing treats "bottleneck" tiles, like doors, separately from non-bottleneck tiles, like walls. Any bottleneck tile pretty much serves its purpose if you can only afford just one, but it depends on a bunch of other "support" tiles (like walls) to function. A door needs roughly 10 walls minimum, or else you can just walk around it. So, a door should cost ten times less than a wall. On the other hand, all 10 of those walls can be bypassed by a single cut in the right spot, so the bypass cost should be higher, relative to the cost of bypassing a bottleneck tile.

Thus, there are two different build/bypass cost ratios, one for bottlenecks (2x) and one for non-bottlenecks (10x). Finally, there are some adjustments for conditional bypasses (water can only work on an electric floor when it's on, and a doorstop can only work on a door when it's open). But anything that offers a non-conditional bypass (like a ladder over a trapdoor) has the same fixed bypass/build cost ratio.

This makes for some gourmet water, and a crowbar that must be made of gold alloy. But, it is much closer to being balanced than the former, intuitive pricing.

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-23 12:47:02

By the way, by "balance" here, I mean, "Making every tile viable."

For example, looking at the current object report on the backend, I see that only one house is using a Powered Door. That's because it was too cheap to bypass, given its cost and requirements. That has changed now.

colorfusion · 2013-08-23 13:18:06

Pretty crazy to see a $1200 doorstep, going to be interesting seeing how it turns out.

Last edited by colorfusion (2013-08-23 13:18:28)

ukuko · 2013-08-23 13:28:19

Something like this, probably.

http://www.hardocp.com/news/2009/10/26/ … nium_mouse

Last edited by ukuko (2013-08-23 13:28:42)

Blip · 2013-08-23 14:05:56

Firstly, another reset needs to happen, as there are so many now-unbeatable houses that had many pits from back when they were $200.
Also, I doubt this will fix anything. What we need isn't more expensive tools, it's (relatively) less expensive tiles! I say we make starting cash $6000, revert back to old tile prices, and use the 3x tool prices in place previously. This would make building a trap with starting cash viable again, and make robberies about upgrading your defenses, not about attempting to acquire any.
The end effect of this would be more houses to rob, all with a semblance of defense. Because frankly, a game where you're forced to have minimal security, which is only successful because others are forced have limited means to overcome it, isn't fun! I want to be able to build complex stuff, with tricks and side routes and circuits, and this just is limiting my options as a house designer too far.

joshwithguitar · 2013-08-23 16:36:51

Someone died in my house with 5 crowbars before the price changes - I'm rich!

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-23 16:55:44

Yeah, maybe a reset is in order. I'll see how things shake-out by this evening.

joshwithguitar · 2013-08-23 17:02:07

Hmm, looks like crowbars are now only useful now in breaking open doors as guns and bricks are cheaper. This makes wife defense much less interesting - just pile pitbulls next to each other. Maybe there needs to be a new item for killing things up close?

Ludicrosity · 2013-08-24 15:13:22

These crowbars are obviously made from pure platinum.

jere · 2013-08-25 06:40:29

One unfortunate consequence of the new pricing rule is that the house values are extremely misleading. Most of the houses have no safe money and it's all with the wife. The wife requires at least $1600 to take out. Thus, you can subtract at least $1600 from the true value of each house on the list.

In fact, I only see 3 houses on the list over $1600 and the top 2 are one time robbable (have dogs by the front door). In those, you need $1600 just to take the first step. Probably closer to $10k to get past all those dogs.

So there are basically no liquid assets in the economy right now.

Rember · 2013-08-25 07:33:03

Pit-bulls should go to their original position after the robber dies, leaves or finds the vault. (In any situation the robber leaves, basically)

It really grinds my gears how people have over $3000 and you can't rob them without spending a load of money to weapons.

Also, this may sound stupid but I think pit-bulls shouldn't be able to notice/attack after your first step, or they shouldn't be able to be placed so close to the darn entrance. (I've seen houses set up approximately starting like this: http://castledraft.com/editor/lAcEbG. If you take two steps east you're stuck and most likely won't survive)

joshwithguitar · 2013-08-25 07:53:52

Rember - the old dog near the door is very old and didn't use to cause too much of a fuss because you could disable it with a $20 piece of dog food. Now that dogfood is $400 this kind of thing makes scouting houses much harder. I'm not sure that dog movement placement rules need to change - the price of dogfood should go down though (even with $800 dogs).

jere · 2013-08-25 08:19:45

I was always against it, but I'm starting to think there might be merit in the two-accounts concept, where you can't use starting money to buy tools (or at least, not as many tools).

The problem that is trying to be solved with this price tweaking, as far as I can tell, is is to prevent $2k starter cash dumped into tools from being overpowered. The thing is, if you're a legitimate house builder, then you don't have that $2k free anymore. Most of the money you get is going to be directed immediately to fortifications. You're never going to blow $2400 on a crowbar for the chance to get deeper into a house. You'd much rather spend that money on 480 wooden walls.

Last edited by jere (2013-08-25 08:20:13)

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-25 14:10:00

Okay, so the theory of the new pricing goes like this:

There are two kinds of obstacles that can stop you from progressing: wall-type things (like walls, windows, and pits) and bottlenecks (dynamic things that can open and close in some way).

Wall-type things tend to be more expensive to build, because you need many of them to do anything. However, they are very cheap to get through, because you can cut through a line of ten walls with only one cut. So, they should be cheaper to build, and more expensive to cut through, to compensate

Bottlenecks tend to be cheaper to build, because you only need one of them to be effective. Also, they are more expensive to cut through, on average, because you need to cut through that one bottleneck. But, the bottleneck is necessary (walls with no bottleneck don't let you through at all). So, they should be more expensive to build, but relatively cheaper to cut through, to compensate.

Finally, across everything, there should be four tiers of pricing. For bottlenecks, it's something like, "cheap enough to build lots of, cheap enough to build a few of, can barely afford one, and can't really afford any." At least for the $2000 player. So, there are some things to reach later, if you can climb the ladder.

The cost of cutting through a wall should be 10x the cost of that wall (by cutting in one spot, you bypass a whole line of walls).

The cost of cutting trough a bottleneck should be 2x the cost of the bottleneck.

And, bottleneck tiers should be roughly 10x more expensive to build, because you need fewer of them (think a line of 10 walls with a door in the middle... they work together in that kind of ratio).

All the other stuff (wiring and switches) can kind of "float" in pricing separate from these, because you don't really cut through this stuff most of the time. If you're cutting through, you're ignoring the wiring.

The tiers I picked for walls are $5, $80, $120, $180 (wood, metal, concrete, pit). Windows float in there above wooden walls.

The tiers I picked for bottlenecks are $50, $800, $1200, and $1800 (electricFloors, pit bulls, doors, and trapdoors).

The bypass tools for these are 10x for walls ($50, $800, $1200, $1800) and 2x for bottlenecks ($100, $1600, $2400, $3600). For things that have more than one bypass usage, the higher usage wins (crowbar can break a $15 window, which should cost $150, but also can open a $1200 door, so it costs $2400).

Finally, if the bypass capability is weak for some reason (like can only bypass something in a certain state, like how water only works on ON floors), then it gets knocked 50% or so. Thus, water is $50 instead of $100. You could carry both tools, to really disable an electric floor in every case, for the full 2x rate of $100.

If the capability is REALLY weak (like drugged meat, which doesn't really clear the dog bottleneck most of the time), then it is knocked down more (in this case, 75%, down to $400, instead of $1600). But a gun can fully bypass a pit bull, so it has the full 2x cost.

SOOOO.... the upshot is that everything is more balanced, because nothing is cost-ineffective to build, since the bypass cost is always in-tune. Build doors instead of electric floors, and they WILL be more expensive for people to bypass. Build trapdoors instead of doors, and they will be even more expensive to pass. Before, this was totally out of tune, so no one built powered doors.

Perhaps the dog part of this theory needs to be altered, since dogs are a different kind of bottleneck, given that they move around. Also, because they cover a wider area than a stationary bottleneck. They can effectively serve as a bottleneck, all by themselves, all the way across the map.

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-25 16:14:35

OKAY!

Guns now cost $800, which help quite a bit with those dogs-by-the-door places.

Meat is down to $100.

A club of some kind is likely coming in the next release.

Dogs were clearly overpowered. This will help. They may need to be brought down a bit more, but we'll see.

I have encountered some very interesting houses so far. I'm happy with where v16, plus the new pricing, seems to be taking us.

ukuko · 2013-08-25 16:48:03

What if the torch cut through powered doors instead of the crowbar?

largestherb · 2013-08-25 18:38:37

oh no they've melted the bloody door! quick, club them

*cries*

Last edited by largestherb (2013-08-25 18:40:19)

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-26 06:26:36

Then the torch would have to be $2400! Which would make it too expensive to use on $80 metal walls, making metal walls overpowered (concrete walls only cost $1200 to cut through).

I'm going to stick pretty rigidly to this pricing theory for a while now. If it costs more to build, it costs more to cut through, no exceptions.

gyuri · 2013-08-26 07:28:16

You can bypass a powered door with water by shorting the power supply. I did that about 20 times today. What about $2400 water?

Simoon · 2013-08-26 09:39:47

gyuri wrote:

You can bypass a powered door with water by shorting the power supply. I did that about 20 times today. What about $2400 water?

You could also create an other powered door opened when powered

This would solve the issue and offer more building options.

Last edited by Simoon (2013-08-26 09:40:49)

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-26 13:13:00

Trapdoor does this (only crossable when powered).

Shorting a power supply with water means that the owner needs to protect their power supply better. You can also snip the wire.

But it IS possible to build a door where you are forcing the player to "solve the puzzle, or crowbar this door, or you're not getting through." That makes the door a "bottleneck" in my new pricing theory.

Yes, a trapdoor has even fewer possible ways to bypass than an electric floor or door... Does that mean the ladder should come down in price to compensate? I'm not sure. But I did make the trapdoor the most expensive house object for that reason.

Really, these kinds of things amount to changing slopes along the "power curve." As long as there is a positive slope (where a more expensive tile costs more to bypass than a less expensive one), there is balance, and all tiles are useful.

And, of course, if a house is designed poorly, all bets are off about how much it costs to bypass something. It could be "$0". In fact, it's always $0, because there is a tool-free way through.

The power curve only applies if you can't figure out how to get through. So, "How much does a door cost to get past?" depends on the house design. Best case (a door just sitting there in the middle of an empty floor), the answer is $0, because you just walk around. Worst case, you are forced to crowbar the door, and it costs $2400.

Yes, in many cases, you can cut around the door. But it's possible, through pits or whatever, to make cutting around even more expensive than breaking through.

ukuko · 2013-08-26 13:24:31

It's rather hard to protect the power supply without any means of putting power through walls, though. So a trapdoor is always going to be preferable. (Can't destroy the circuit to bypass it.)

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-27 06:25:13

Yeah.... so, I wonder.... does that mean that a door should be EVEN MORE expensive to bypass than it already is? Or cheaper to build, relative to its bypass cost?

jasonrohrer · 2013-08-27 06:28:32

Yeah, still pretty much no one is using a powered door right now.... hmm...

jere · 2013-08-27 06:35:26

I think cheaper to build relative to the crowbar.

One thought on the new pricing: it might be unwise to have any tools above starting cash. I can't remember which ones exactly, but I think the crowbar and the ladder. With no in game descriptions, one has to experiment with tools. And not just one time either. Plenty of tools work on different kinds of objects.

So currently you're talking about someone having to a) build a really successful house and b) blow upwards of $10k (it's a waste if you don't find the right opportunity to use it) to get a solid idea of how a particular tool works. That's pretty rough.

If they're below starting cash, you can experiment easily.

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2013-08-23 12:33:41

Experimental, Ridiculous Pricing

#2 2013-08-23 12:47:02

Re: Experimental, Ridiculous Pricing

#3 2013-08-23 13:18:06

Re: Experimental, Ridiculous Pricing

#4 2013-08-23 13:28:19

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#5 2013-08-23 14:05:56

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