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#1 2013-08-28 12:59:52

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Change to the way Chills work

An exploit came to my attention recently:

You could spend your starting money on tools, then go cut into a house in one direction, then go home to suicide for more money, and repeat on the same house (cutting through in different directions each time).  Combined with vault reaches or family member murders (which save the damage to the house), you could extend this technique even more.

Essentially, "Suicide Is Painless" (M*A*S*H).

This is not just an exploit.... it's also thematically jarring.  Coming home to find your house wrecked and your family dead is a great motivation for suicide (thematically consonant---and you actually feel down at that moment, in real life).  Suiciding over and over in a looping fashion to get more money is thematically dissonant.

And I found myself gravitating toward this loop as I played the game, and it felt weird.

Okay, so the fix is that you now leave an hour-long "ghost" wherever you go.  If you ever die, anywhere, that ghost gives all of those places that you went in your past life a chill.  So, if you go into a bunch of houses, then go home and build stuff, and then suicide 20 minutes later, you'll be blocked from going back into that bunch of houses for 40 more minutes.

This also eliminates all of the "dumping" behavior that we saw before (which lead to a bunch of counter-intuitive fixes, where you can only drop your backpack into the vault if you die, because only that creates a chill that would prevent you from coming back for those tools in the next life). 

So, we don't need those fixes anymore!  Now, any unused tools are left in the vault whether you die or leave or reach the vault.  Because if you go home and kill yourself to get even more tools, there will be a 1-hour chill on the house where you dumped the tools.

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#2 2013-08-28 13:15:59

gumshoe
Member
Registered: 2013-08-18
Posts: 54

Re: Change to the way Chills work

soooo, If were talking thematics issues that also yield uninteresting game play..... How is entrusting your wife and children's well bieng  to dozens of ferocius violent animals make sense? Or contribute to interesting game play? (wife protection has no decicion making, its just a matter of how much money you can sink into it)

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#3 2013-08-28 13:27:07

ukuko
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 333

Re: Change to the way Chills work

This might actually be the biggest change to the game since v5.

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#4 2013-08-28 13:46:53

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I like that this prevents dumping. That's huge.

But as usual, I worry about how it will effect new players. Let's say there are 5 houses on the list (a reasonable number lately). As a new player, it's very likely I would check out all 5 and then end up dying in one after deciding to take more risks. Then I can't do anything but build for an hour? Ouch!


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#5 2013-08-28 14:02:38

Axious
Member
Registered: 2013-08-01
Posts: 12

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I think this new chill/ghost effect will fix some of the issues for sure.

In addition to this, I think there are many more things that need to be addressed. In the current version of the game, is it insanely difficult to get started, even to make a single trap lasting for several hours(check it every 20 min or you wont make it). All of my house designs are being ravaged by random people with $2000 starting cash again and again. This is not so bad for me, because I like a challenge, the only part I don't like about this right now is having to save up money with a crappy house (because there are no houses to rob on the block) Just to be able to buy one or two additional small traps that even then can still be dominated by $2000 starting cash. And that is why there are no houses right now. I have seen other people bring up this issue in the past, and I think it will always be a problem with the current system.

So maybe Jason, what you are thinking is that there is this balance you are trying to achieve between the cost of tiles and tools so that this starting cash robbery is not a problem. While I don't doubt that is possible, a much more robust fix for this (and I have seen this stated many times before) is creating a different pool for starter cash that can't be spent on tools. You could call it     House Loan: $1500,  this money can only be spent on tiles, and once spent does not come back until the next fresh start, the other $500 dollars would be in your Cash: $500.  So you can spend money on tools if you are intelligent about what tools you buy you can still rob houses off the beginning. --I think the only reason you are keeping around this starter cash ability to buy tools is because you want people who first start the game to be able to experience the thrill of robbing a house and risking their life. With the method I am proposing of having two pools of money, you get to keep this beginner robbery thrill, as well as balance the game.

I think the pricing you have for the house tiles right now is fine, but the amount of money given to make a house off the beginning should be increased at least double of what it is now. With a "House Loan" for this increased money off the start, you won't have to worry about people using it on tools just to ravage houses that people actually spent time balancing their tight resources to create. The proposal I am making is much more robust than relying on good balance of tiles vs tools.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks.


My iOS game Metal Masher check it out! www.MetalMasher.net

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#6 2013-08-28 14:11:37

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Axious wrote:

I think this new chill/ghost effect will fix some of the issues for sure.

In addition to this, I think there are many more things that need to be addressed. In the current version of the game, is it insanely difficult to get started, even to make a single trap lasting for several hours(check it every 20 min or you wont make it). All of my house designs are being ravaged by random people with $2000 starting cash again and again. This is not so bad for me, because I like a challenge, the only part I don't like about this right now is having to save up money with a crappy house (because there are no houses to rob on the block) Just to be able to buy one or two additional small traps that even then can still be dominated by $2000 starting cash. And that is why there are no houses right now. I have seen other people bring up this issue in the past, and I think it will always be a problem with the current system.

So maybe Jason, what you are thinking is that there is this balance you are trying to achieve between the cost of tiles and tools so that this starting cash robbery is not a problem. While I don't doubt that is possible, a much more robust fix for this (and I have seen this stated many times before) is creating a different pool for starter cash that can't be spent on tools. You could call it     House Loan: $1500,  this money can only be spent on tiles, and once spent does not come back until the next fresh start, the other $500 dollars would be in your Cash: $500.  So you can spend money on tools if you are intelligent about what tools you buy you can still rob houses off the beginning. --I think the only reason you are keeping around this starter cash ability to buy tools is because you want people who first start the game to be able to experience the thrill of robbing a house and risking their life. With the method I am proposing of having two pools of money, you get to keep this beginner robbery thrill, as well as balance the game.

I think the pricing you have for the house tiles right now is fine, but the amount of money given to make a house off the beginning should be increased at least double of what it is now. With a "House Loan" for this increased money off the start, you won't have to worry about people using it on tools just to ravage houses that people actually spent time balancing their tight resources to create. The proposal I am making is much more robust than relying on good balance of tiles vs tools.

Let me know your thoughts, thanks.

I personally wasn't for this idea at first, but now I think it would really fix a lot of problems. It seems pretty much impossible otherwise to have a balanced amount of starter cash where it couldn't just be brute forced with another person's starting cash, and also not be able to buy enough tools to brute force through starting houses yourself.

Increasing tool prices somewhat works, but swings it way off balance for people who are earning money and robbing rather than just going off of the starter cash. It also allows for houses which just cost a fortune to brute force and there's no other way around it.

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#7 2013-08-28 17:54:10

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Thanks, this and the increase in the gun price should make things easier (with the V17 changes guns no longer needed to be cheap).

Still, with current pitbull prices to defend your wife against starter houses you need to spend $1600 on pitbulls and you won't have enough money to build enough walls to stop them and you won't have enough money to protect your vault. I think now that they return to their original position and with the introduction of the club pitbulls are no longer as OP as they were when you set the $800 price tag and as such should be decreased in price. This will allow someone to properly secure their wife against starters and also allow those that want to protect their wife the ability to build some actual vault defence.

I also agree with anxious that at the moment even if you decided to spend all of your money on vault defence, it would be (I think) impossible to build something that survives starter cash. For anything larger than a corridor the only affordable walls are wooden ones but on starter cash you can buy 40 saws. Any interesting but cheap house that I see, one of the first thoughts I have is "how many saws to break this one" - generally 6 ($300) will easily do. It is hard to conceive of a house built with only wooden walls that could survive 40 saws, even if you many thousands to spend on it. Perhaps saw prices need to be increased - wooden walls simply do not provide the same utility as the others at the moment as to defend against the same amount of money you have to build ridiculously thick walls that are simply impractical.

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#8 2013-08-28 19:32:47

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: Change to the way Chills work

i think my slowly-developing house was just the victim of this suicide smashing. i don't mind. there isn't much else to do and vandalising someone's three days of work in 10 minutes for nothing is totally what i have done in the past.

but right now it is kind of.. well. there was only 1 house when i checked earlier.

will be an interesting change to see.

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#9 2013-08-28 20:00:19

Ludicrosity
Member
From: US
Registered: 2013-06-22
Posts: 144

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Wow, wish I knew about this change before I went around casually scouting out the neighboring then going home and committing suicide. tongue

As far as the rule change goes, I'm not sure how I feel about this, but if it helps the number of houses grow then it is a success. Right now there are not so many... sad

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#10 2013-08-29 00:18:46

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I really like this change and think it has lots of merit, but I do worry players may resent being locked out for long periods (especially with such a small list of houses).

However, I also feel the current game pricing is crippling and has swung too far in the other direction of affordability and something needs to be done to fix this.  Either a more reasonable cost to build or an increased amount of starting cash. 

Because at the moment it is nigh-on impossible to build a starting house with even the smallest sniff of security. :~9


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#11 2013-08-29 07:44:54

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I think we're pretty close to the "knife edge" of balance right now.

It should feel "nearly impossible" to build a secure house, but not totally impossible.  On the other hand, it should feel nearly impossible as a robber to get through a house. 

We're pretty close, but I think that robbers are slightly too strong right now, especially when it comes to cutting through wooden walls.

But, the new chills weaken robbers a lot, because they no longer have unlimited money to grind against one house.  Still, 40 saws is a lot of saws.

Right now, the bypass-cost curve is linear.  But there's no reason it can't be a curve, and have the low-end stuff be relatively more powerful per dollar than the high end stuff.  Thus, the cost of bypassing electric floors and wooden walls can come up.

On starter money, you can bypass 2 metal walls, 1 concrete wall, and 0 pits.... but 40 wooden walls!

You can bypass 1 pitbull, 0 doors, and 0 trapdoors.... but 40 electric floors!

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#12 2013-08-29 07:55:41

AGO
Member
Registered: 2013-08-06
Posts: 10

Re: Change to the way Chills work

The starting cash is so small that you have to check in every 20 minutes to help build the defenses. The dramatic game changes are making it impossible to even begin balancing this game. Personally I wish the starting money was really high so I could make a great starting house that I know I could leave to the wolves. i like watching people smash my creations but with starting cash so low I can only make small little rooms.

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#13 2013-08-29 08:04:44

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Well, I do want some house designs to be out of reach for starting players.  Otherwise, there is no ladder to climb, and all houses in the game will look exactly the same.  Your building strategy should change as you get more money.

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#14 2013-08-29 11:54:52

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Change to the way Chills work

The problem with this "ladder to climb" ideal is that there is no incentive to rob a house above you when you go though less risk robbing low level houses. I have no idea how to fix this.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#15 2013-08-31 14:07:42

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Now that I've actually played a bit more under the new system, I have to say that it ruins the game, plain and simple. I hate games where, if you die, you have to wait before playing again. The current chills mechanic is just that; within one or two deaths, I'm locked out of the entire neighborhood! Then, I only have the starting $200 to build with. I can't rob, because there are chills everywhere, and I don't want to log in every 10 minutes. So I have to leave and come back in an hour.

This game used to be about building creative traps. Now it seems to be about building "scary" traps that people leave before attempting, or, more importantly, building traps that are expensive to break through. Why? Because now getting somebody to leave is nearly as good as a kill, because your house still gets chills from that robber's later death. For example, look at this:http://castledraft.com/editor/FG4nwa. This house is simply far too expensive to get through (once robbed once) considering its new worth, and would be left on the first or second step.  However, if the robber died in another house, a mediocre once-robbable house would get the chills too.

I like building houses that lure people in, and, via a complex system, manage to fool them into such an unescapable scenario such that, no matter how many tools they brought, they're screwed. Now, something like that would cost more than the net worth of the neighborhood.

Last edited by Blip (2013-08-31 14:40:22)


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#16 2013-08-31 14:35:59

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Change to the way Chills work

The current chills mechanic is just that; within one or two deaths, I'm locked out of the entire neighborhood!

Hmm, that was pretty much what I predicted, but I figured it would only be a problem with new players. It might work with an order of magnitude more houses, but that also won't happen without more rule changes (I've never been convinced it will solve itself with more players).


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#17 2013-08-31 14:41:48

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I think it'll be more of a problem to experienced players, who always scout out all houses before choosing the most vulnerable one to rob...


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#18 2013-09-01 01:27:40

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Change to the way Chills work

Blip wrote:

Now that I've actually played a bit more under the new system, I have to say that it ruins the game, plain and simple. I hate games where, if you die, you have to wait before playing again. The current chills mechanic is just that; within one or two deaths, I'm locked out of the entire neighborhood! Then, I only have the starting $200 to build with. I can't rob, because there are chills everywhere, and I don't want to log in every 10 minutes. So I have to leave and come back in an hour.

Wait a minute, isn't the 1 hour lockout meant to be for suicide?

Shouldn't dying robbing a house result in getting chills from just that house, and clicking that suicide button when the 1 hour lockout takes place?

This would make players more inclined to get the chills from one of the houses on the list and would also give players a reason to craft house designs which focus on enclosing the robber in electric doors and forcing him to press that button. smile

Last edited by dalleck (2013-09-01 02:47:19)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#19 2013-09-01 03:31:34

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Change to the way Chills work

dalleck wrote:
Blip wrote:

Now that I've actually played a bit more under the new system, I have to say that it ruins the game, plain and simple. I hate games where, if you die, you have to wait before playing again. The current chills mechanic is just that; within one or two deaths, I'm locked out of the entire neighborhood! Then, I only have the starting $200 to build with. I can't rob, because there are chills everywhere, and I don't want to log in every 10 minutes. So I have to leave and come back in an hour.

Wait a minute, isn't the 1 hour lockout meant to be for suicide?

Shouldn't dying robbing a house result in getting chills from just that house, and clicking that suicide button when the 1 hour lockout takes place?

This would make players more inclined to get the chills from one of the houses on the list and would also give players a reason to craft house designs which focus on enclosing the robber in electric doors and forcing him to press that button. smile

This wouldn't really stop dumping tools. People would just dump the tools in a house and then suicide/die in another.

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#20 2013-09-01 04:36:40

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Change to the way Chills work

colorfusion wrote:

This wouldn't really stop dumping tools. People would just dump the tools in a house and then suicide/die in another.

Then perhaps it needs to be reverted back to tools not being dumped when you walk back out of a house.

On that note, any chance of the doorstep non-dump being implemented Jason?  As in, you don't even take a step into the house so you take your stuff with you?


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#21 2013-09-01 07:20:28

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Change to the way Chills work

I like the new chill rules and simply think that it means that you have to ply differently when you restart. If you want to try some burglaries out before you start building it makes sense now to check out one house and then, if you think it is possible spend the money on tools straight away to give it a go. With many houses now if you bring excess tools you can just get them back with a second attempt. If you are unsuccessful at robbing the place, suicide and with your new set of starter cash check out the next house. This way, only once you've given all of the interesting houses a decent try will you find yourself unable to do anything.

One issue with the new rules is that it could make being rich overpowered. Once you have enough money now you can spend a ridiculous amount on tools and then rob each house carrying the full set and simply go back to get the excess ones after each robbery. I liked it that previously there was a bit of a gamble when taking on a house as to how much you were willing to spend on tools, now there is little reason not bring as many as you can as long as you are rich enough to basically guarantee getting to the vault. Perhaps tools left at the door should go to the vault but tools held when successful should be lost?

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#22 2013-09-02 03:35:28

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Change to the way Chills work

One of the problems I have with this new system is it doesn't feel as intuitive as before, where you knew you died in that house so a 'spirit' lingered.  How would a new player react when they find themselves locked out of the neighbourhood after they had a look around and died?  I can tell you, they would probably quit the game and never return.


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#23 2013-09-02 04:44:51

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Change to the way Chills work

What if chills only happened if you brought tools into the house?

This might be a bit less intuitive to realise, but it would fix dumping tools without so much locking people out.

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#24 2013-09-02 05:10:15

dalleck
Member
Registered: 2013-04-13
Posts: 250

Re: Change to the way Chills work

colorfusion wrote:

What if chills only happened if you brought tools into the house?

This might be a bit less intuitive to realise, but it would fix dumping tools without so much locking people out.

Yes this could be implemented with it saying 'scouting X's House', rather than 'robbing' if you haven't brought tools with you.  Players will then be able to see clearly that the houses they committed to robbing are the ones being chilled.

Also Jason, perhaps the 1 hour 'suicide' lockout should be in a different colour?  It could be something like 'locked out' rather than chills, and have a message like "You have been locked out.  Come back later."

Last edited by dalleck (2013-09-02 05:34:17)


The rich aren't safe. Nobody is safe. -jere                   ...but the smell wafts out from the pit, obviously. - Jason Rohrer

And the more dickish they are, the more I feel like beating a house to destruction after finally figuring it out. -bey bey

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#25 2013-09-02 05:24:46

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: Change to the way Chills work

the neighbourhood is looking a bit more healthy .. looks like this might be helping smile

locking people out for an hour~ is a bit poop, BUT it is even more poop if you cannot go to sleep for more than two hours to come home and find your house has been obliterated by one person in ten minutes.

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