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#1 2014-01-02 11:34:18

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Thinking again about 8 backpack slots being too many (given that you can have infinite items, and the slots limit how many types you can carry.

Of course, if I lower it too much, impossible-to-force houses may come back.

I think that 7 item types is the minimum to break any house.  A house in theory could require you to:

--bypass metal walls (torch 1)
--bypass concrete walls (explosives 2)
--bypass wooden walls (already have torch)
--Force open a door (crowbar 3)
--Disable an electric floor on (water 4)
--Disable an electric floor off (wire cutters 5)
--Shoot a dog (gun 6)
--Cross pits and trapdoors (ladder 7)

The ultimate theoretical house could require all 7 item types to force-enter.

As far as I'm aware, there's no way for a house to force you to use a brick, drugged meat, a club, a doorstop, or a saw.

I'm not sure about the crowbar... could you have a whole "wall of doors" that you could not cut around?  If so, how would it be triggered?  If externally, then you could cut the power.  If internally, then how would it be triggered?  Maybe by a timer?

If this is not possible, then you can always cut around a door, making the crowbar redundant in this calculation.  6 mandatory item types is possible, then?

Am I missing something here?  Should I bring the backpack slots down to 6?

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#2 2014-01-02 12:05:56

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

As far as I can remember, an explosive can blast a metal wall, right? So you do not necessarily need a torch...
I think a wall of doors can be activated by an animal seeing you from the other side of the wall. You could not cut around.

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#3 2014-01-02 14:29:33

jasonrohrer
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Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Explosives don't hurt metal walls (only wood and concrete).

By a "wall of doors" I meant a wall from one end of the house to the other.  If the doors are closed...  Oh, well, but if they start open and then close, the animals could see you and then start a magic dance behind the closed wall-of-doors.  So then a crowbar can be necessary to break a house.

So.... then the question is:  should I cut down the backpack slots to 7?  Seems like such a puny change that it might not even be worth doing.

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#4 2014-01-02 14:31:17

jasonrohrer
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Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

On the other hand... if I cut it down more than that, like down to X slots, it would be a challenge to try to build a house that REQUIRES X+1 tools to break.

I mean, can anyone draft a house that would require 7 tool types to bypass?  Is there enough room for that on the map?

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#5 2014-01-02 16:28:45

largestherb
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From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

jasonrohrer wrote:

As far as I'm aware, there's no way for a house to force you to use a brick, drugged meat, a club, a doorstop, or a saw.

unless you have a friend / dumb luck with a robber who comes in and leaves your house in such a state that it does require one of those.

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#6 2014-01-02 17:57:31

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

All houses can be broken with a combination of only 5 items:
Crowbar, water, wirecutters, ladder and the gun.

This is because each house must have a walkable path to the vault and these are the only items required to brute force such a path. Tools that bust through walls aren't needed.

I've had a go of making a house where these 5 items are necessary, though I'm not sure it's possible to force the player to use a gun. In this one you have to use a crowbar, wirecutters, water and ladder to brute force but can replace the gun with a brick/saw and dogfood or possibly just a saw:
http://castledraft.com/editor/CXrsbX

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#7 2014-01-02 17:58:42

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

After thinking a bit, I wonder why torches and explosives could be mandatory. There must be a way free of walls leading to the safe, so what kind of house would necessarily require to break walls?

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#8 2014-01-02 18:00:38

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

oh, you got ahead of me by one minute Josh smile

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#9 2014-01-02 19:18:52

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

An attempt for a house requiring a gun: http://castledraft.com/editor/RBJUML
The idea is to get an 8-connected chain of pitbulls if you do not complete the lock. It may need some adjustment related to visibility, to ensure that the pitull on the top stays on the topmost rank.

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#10 2014-01-02 19:28:57

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Largestherb can you show an example requiring a brick or a drugged meat? I see no reason how a house, even in a broken state, would require one.

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#11 2014-01-03 01:09:19

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

arakira: Your example can be easily robbed with a ladder and crowbar. The dogs won't be able to step on the same square as a dead cat.

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#12 2014-01-03 03:14:31

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Can you please explain how you break through with a ladder and a crowbar? I don't understand how you could use the crowbar because the door is initially unpowered.
Here is an even more simple design: http://castledraft.com/editor/3V2IEk

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#13 2014-01-03 09:01:07

jasonrohrer
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Posts: 1,231

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Good thinking here!  I forgot about self-test forbidding fully-walled-off houses.

So... in that case, it seems like 5 backpack slots would be pretty interesting.  Lower than that, and everyone would just build Josh's house there.

Obviously, if you COULD use a brick instead of a ladder, you'd much rather carry a brick.  But in some cases, you'd need a ladder.

I just feel like there are not quite enough "difficult decision" present in the "what to carry" question, because you have so much room... pretty much room for everything but the usually-useless items.  So, a rich player can just fill up the backpack without much thought.

8 Slots was a serious, brain-busting limit back when each slot only held one item.

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#14 2014-01-03 16:59:39

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

arakira:
Crowbars can be used to club dogs in exactly the same way as a club. This was once one of their primary purposes, back when they were much cheaper and the club didn't exist. So even in the new design you can just ladder the bit at the bottom, crowbar the dog and walk to the vault.

Jason:
I think 5 slots might be too restrictive, 6 might be a good compromise. Both would have the interesting effect of encouraging more diversity within a house to force the player to bring as many different types of tool as possible and restrict less expensive ones. It is hard to know how they will effect the game in the long term without trying it though.

Last edited by joshwithguitar (2014-01-03 17:03:54)

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#15 2014-01-04 01:09:28

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Thanks Josh, I forgot about that possibility (because I never used it). Well, if you can't kill a drugged pitbull with a crowbar, this might work: http://castledraft.com/editor/lPN7VA.

Also, I checked the wiki and it says that metal walls can be blown with explosives. I don't know who is in charge of the wiki but I guess she/he would like to know.

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#16 2014-01-04 06:49:43

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

This one can be broken with a dogfood and a crowbar (hint, use dogfood on the dog to straight down after one step). It wouldn't be too hard to fix, though, although such a house could be a real pain to set up, especially with only one account.

We are all in charge of the wiki, you can edit it to fix it if you like. I think at some point explosives could blow through metal walls and it was changed.

Last edited by joshwithguitar (2014-01-04 06:53:28)

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#17 2014-01-04 07:18:13

arakira
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Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

You right, this one should hopefully be a good one: http://castledraft.com/editor/EgGL0m.
Setting it up is a quite fun, you could start with something like this: http://castledraft.com/editor/qzz8tB, it costs around 1400$.

Last edited by arakira (2014-01-04 07:29:51)

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#18 2014-01-04 18:22:16

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

That one can be robbed with 3 crowbars smile. Clever design for setting it up though.

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#19 2014-01-04 18:44:43

arakira
Member
Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Damn. If you put an electric floor in front of the mat, it works, right? I tried to avoid putting one there, so that it is easier to set up.
Maybe something like this: http://castledraft.com/editor/5dQkdz, you get the idea. It is difficult to test because all the dogs look the same so I am not sure where each one is moving... Would be nice to be able to paint dogs with different colors!

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#20 2014-01-05 17:50:44

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Josh, why would 5 slots be too tight?  What do you envision happening if I limited people to 5 slots?

I suppose that the less-used, less-necessary items would become even less attractive to carry, which might make creative robbery play (like using a brick in a clever way) less likely.

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#21 2014-01-07 20:09:46

arakira
Member
Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

I think it would be nice to reduce to 5 or 6 slots. I've never felt restricted by the 8 items limit, and lowering the limit would add some tough tactical decisions when preparing the backpack. If you reduce down to 5, we may see many houses with a mix of different kind of walls: putting metal AND concrete walls around doors could for example force the robber to bring some expensive crowbars... that could be interesting.

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#22 2014-01-07 23:23:33

joshwithguitar
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Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

My worry is that with too much restriction it might make home defence a little too easy for the rich and possibly make tool choice when robbing the rich less interesting. It is nice to be able to bring along a few "just in case" tools and robbery already works pretty well as it is. As I said, it is hard to know how things would pan out though without actually implementing it.

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#23 2014-01-08 12:46:37

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

Yes, I'm concerned about that too...  the "just in case" tools create tactical decisions at rob time (whereas a tighter slot limit would create tactical decisions at load-out time).  It's a trade-off.

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#24 2014-01-08 14:19:14

colorfusion
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Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

With a tight 5 slot limit it will be possible to force people to do things such as using a load of guns on dogs that could otherwise be taken out with a drugged meat, and have them unable to break any walls. Although this would be hard to ever set up.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-01-08 14:19:33)

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#25 2014-01-12 22:02:02

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Maximum number of item types a house can FORCE a robber to use?

I think I'm going to leave this alone for now.

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