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#1 Main Forum » What does leaving a message for posterity do? » 2013-11-22 10:16:26

Replies: 3

When we quit we press % or can leave a message.

Does this message do anything or go anywhere?

#2 Re: Main Forum » My ideas - Make the house a home » 2013-09-08 07:55:47

I would like the idea of cupboards etc, if it were something you can steal from too.  You can steal the china, and maybe a lamp etc.  The idea of being able to hide money in the couch though...   This would change the game a whole lot though, not sure if that is a direction that Jason would want.

I really like this idea:
- surveillance camera or trip wire that brings on the police.
I was hoping that jason would put police in houses that have already been robbed or where someone died,  that way it would make it that much harder to rob again (right now you get robbed once you basically lose).

Anyway i think just being able to color the floor (carpet) would go a long way towards what you are saying.

#3 Re: Main Forum » A proposal that needs feedback » 2013-08-15 15:09:13

bey bey wrote:

Yeah, I really feel it's all about the "range" of electricity. And limiting this is the only way of not killing about 90% of the way the game works right now. It would be tricky as to how to do it and how circuits could then interact, and it COULD be slightly less beginner friendly in building mode, yet hopefully a bit more friendly in robbing, at least until Blip comes up with something nobody thought of. wink

This is kind of similar to an idea i had before:
- each power source can only power up x number of components (doors, floors, etc. )
- as circuit complexity rises, it is also easier to break because an under-powered circuit would act like an un-powered circuit
- therefore as the complexity/importance of circuits starts to go up it becomes doubly expensive because you will want to have backup power sources to mitigate risk to the circuit

#4 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-10 14:14:48

zed wrote:

There's another problem with using randomness with fixed seeds. You could
build a house whose solution depended on knowing the precise movement of some
hidden pets. The designer would keep rolling new seeds, or fiddling with the
setup of the pets if the seed is fixed, until the movement was as wanted. A
robber would have no idea how the pets were going to move, so wouldn't have a
hope of solving the puzzle.

I don't think this is possible if a new seed is rolled on every self test. 
Or maybe I am misunderstanding you?

EDIT:  yes think i see what you mean,  if the pet is not life threatening and simply hitting buttons you could, at least in principle, make an even more arbitrary magic dance if you rolled rolled rolled on your self test.

#5 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-10 13:56:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

However, I think Ukuko means that the owner would not be able to count on a reliable "solution" to their own house!

That's true, but it would have to be this way by definition to leave out magic dances.  The solutions would have to be 'general'.  If they want a very specific solution, they would have to take that random risk themselves (highly unlikely).

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I should point out that, while random animal movement might help somewhat with magic dance designs, it wouldn't address combination locks.

I think your infinite backpack idea could really balance this.  Will blueprints still be available to show things that the player has explored?

#6 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-10 13:30:44

ukuko wrote:

If animal movement had random elements you'd be faced with the problem of a non-repeatable self-test.

That's true in theory,  but what if the server gives the client the random seed that was used in the successful test?

#7 Re: Main Forum » Thoughts from a Newbie who was truly looking forward to this game. » 2013-06-10 12:37:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

But what about if the backpack itself was one-time-use only?  Like, you have to ditch it as you run out the door (when you chicken out), and you have to ditch it when you reach the vault (to carry the loot home).  So, if you bring 100 explosives with you and find no concrete walls, you lose them, and they're totally wasted.

So, you'd want to bring just enough of each item to get through the house, but nothing more than that.  Thus, you'd do some scouting with only a few items in your pack each time, trying to go deeper and deeper into the house to see what items are needed, looking for weak points that will let you save items on future scouting trips and on the final robbery.

Also, money for buying these tools will still be a tightly-limited resource.

Well, I think this could really work,  because it won't be worth robbing a 10,000 house if you spend more than $5000 to do it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Furthermore, the "one-time robbable" issue would vanish.  The over-protected family would vanish.

how so?  because of the infinite but disposed backpack idea?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Ideas like limiting the potency of power supplies (a good idea!) chip away at the "design freedom" side of things, but I fear that no small chip will do it (the only solution would be to restrict house design so much that it would no longer be interesting).
I'm now thinking about ways to reduce the other aspect (the ability for the owner to force you to solve the puzzle in their chosen way).

  I understand.  Honestly, I think what you suggest is one of those things you can't predict how it will play without actually putting it out there.  I'll help!  tongue

#8 Re: Main Forum » Thoughts from a Newbie who was truly looking forward to this game. » 2013-06-10 12:16:21

DrNoid wrote:

The problem with idea is that most houses have the power sources inaccessible, or only have those power sources accessible that are needed to get through the security. That means that if you fry that power source you lock yourself out...

Sure,  but the point would be to limit complexity by adding a dependency for all circuits.  For example,  right now i can just put 2 or 3 power sources on opposite sides of my house behind big walls and the entire circuit is relatively safe.  What I suggest would push the home owners towards either 1) expensive redundancy or 2) simpler designs

#9 Re: Main Forum » [Suggestion] Be the wife » 2013-06-10 12:08:18

Sorry, but this game takes place in 1991. 
The glass ceiling was still in place.

- half joking tongue

Actually,  the game does have the wife earn some income, doesn't it?

#10 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-10 12:04:12

Yes, I agree with your critiques of this idea.
I didn't consider that having x steps left could be used to make it be the ONLY way to solve a puzzle - thereby making magic dance WORSE.

The more I think about it,  the more I think that adding some randomness to the animal movement could be the solution to magic dance.
- It would make it impossible to make a step by step magic dance.   
- It makes sense that you can't perfectly predict pet behavior.

There will probably still be magic dance but it won't be possible to make it grid-to-grid accurate,  and therefore won't be very intricate.
Pit bulls will become very dangerous, and therefore more judiciously deployed (and even more feared by robbers - kinda realistic too).

just my thoughts.

#11 Re: Main Forum » Thoughts from a Newbie who was truly looking forward to this game. » 2013-06-09 10:10:21

It seems to me the problem is one of how can we keep houses from becoming ridiculously impenetrable aka non-fun.  This means that the choice for a home owner should not be how to make my house impenetrable,  but how to choose my vulnerability wisely.

One way might be to limit the complexity of the puzzles by limiting the power sources. 
For example:  suppose a power source can only power up to 4 electric floors,  or 2 doors etc.   Each electric device uses X power from the source.  If there is not enough power in a circuit, nothing in the circuit works. So even destroying 1 power source could wreak havoc on a very complex trap system.  This would probably tend to make traps simpler, and used in more judicious ways.  Especially if the power sources became more expensive.  (damn you destroyed my power source... destroying an entire trap system AND $500!!)
If this change made the traps too simple... you might even be able to restore the feature of not having blueprints.

EDIT: also finding a room full of power sources could be a boon to a robber, knowing they likely disabled everything if they water a couple of them....  and owners having rows and rows of electric floor and electric traps would just be cost-prohibitive.  Also,  power redundancy would be very expensive as well.

#12 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-08 21:43:18

I just thought of another suggestion of using the police mechanic to fight magic dance:

Suppose that insta-death placement traps were either cut or weren't outright fatal.
Instead they simply set off an "alarm" (a timer)
If the alarm is set off,  you have x moves before the police arrive (spawned either randomly or at the door by the server).  This still lets you have magic dance if you want,  but makes it much less effective.
These police would take a long time to go away to let this robber return.

#13 Re: Main Forum » Pet movement suggestion » 2013-06-08 19:52:52

I don't think you can hope for nuances not to matter. A house can always be
designed whose solution will hinge on the precise behaviour in a given

I actually disagree.  You could add randomness to the movement choice of the animals... this would really change the game of course,  but it is a way to destroy precise behavior mechanics.

#14 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-08 07:59:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

  It sounds like you're talking about this happening to the house itself once it is robbed once (so that all subsequent robbers will encounter police)

Yes, that is exactly what i meant. 
(and also you wouldn't need to remove the house from the original robber's list, since the police would strike a balance between artificially hiding the house and completely cleaning out the owner.)

#15 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-07 16:36:22

Actually - now that I think of it, it could be a nice violation of the game MO.   
The game is 100% deterministic. 
Except:  when you commit a serious crime,  the consequences can never be fully predicted.

#16 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-07 16:31:03

Matrix wrote:

how you a specific house and tell you to place 3 policemen inside you will probably show those 3 spots right away and you would probably have no problems explaining the logic/rules behind it (i.e. why you placed them exactly where you did). But image that then I change the "challenge" slightly and I ask you to tell me those same placement rules for an arbitrary house. You would probably list the same rules and add a few more that would be suitable for other house designs, but there is probably a specific house where all those rules would fail (i.e. no policemen would be placed). The hard part is coming up with a non-trivial ruleset where it's guaranteed that it can be applied to any of the possible houses.

I agree. i don't think it is reasonable to try to place them logically in any house with code.   
That is why I think it should just choose random blank spaces to put them in (and the worse the crime the more units get added).  Trivial? Yes. But randomness can be very powerful, and is very often mistaken for intelligence.

#17 Re: Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-07 11:42:04

ukuko wrote:
metaldev wrote:

Suppose houses get "swarmed by police"

I've thought about this myself as a reason to stop a robber returning to the scene of the crime before the owner has returned. A message saying something like 'It's not safe for you to return to this house right now.' would suffice without having to introduce any complicated new game mechanics.

I'm still on the fence about whether this would be a good thing or not, though.

Yea... i thought about the message first too.   The reason i thought adding actual police units is better is twofold:
1) If implemented, it is still at least (in principle) possible to get more out of the house:  if you can get a police to go into a trap or they happen to spawn in places that don't hinder you.   So the idea that you can double burglarize is preserved - it should just be VERY hard,  and even HARDER each time with more police spawned (and as a bonus: even suggests the often improbable and chaotic consequences of real-life robberies and murders with the random placement of police)

2)  assuming the code is reasonably written, i wouldn't imagine would be too hard to add.  The feature would consist of:
- allowing a pitbull to use a gun against the player
- drawing the policeman assets
- modify the server to spawn police into a house after successful robbery
- balancing the # of police spawned based on the robbery/murder events

But of course this isn't my code and i could be talking out of my butt.

#18 Main Forum » anti-magic dance and police » 2013-06-07 09:12:34

Replies: 19

I would like to post some brainstorm i had this morning about the game:

1) magic dance houses where you have to move to certain coordinates before proceeding have been mentioned and i agree they are annoying.
I feel like showing all blueprints is kind of a 80% solution to this.  Maybe I am wrong, but here are some possible suggestions:
- having pets only chase you on a line of sight type rule, (maybe the same type of rule that that applies to the family vs exit)
- pets meow/bark revealing the area around them as soon as they start reacting to you (this is kind of like jason's 32 slots idea for revealing the map)
If these types of things are implemented,  maybe the feeling of the older versions can be restored... where the blueprint is only revealed to what you have seen in the house, and you can explore it.  Anyway this is just an idea, but I am pretty sure this would end most magic dance houses even without knowing the entire blueprint.

2) once your house has been robbed, it really is like losing everything because once this happens you will just get raped over and over until you have nothing.  It is probably almost never worth continuing. Imo this nullifies one of the more interesting choices of the game:  Is my life worth continuing?
Suppose houses get "swarmed by police" (x number of police units are dispersed randomly into the house) after a successful robbery or murder, maybe the number can be based on how bad the robbery/murder was.  policeman = pitbull logic + gun.  They would disappear after the owner returns and has a chance to fix things.  It would be very hard or impossible to do anything in there with police.  Now, picture a scenario where I am robbing a house, and I have found access to the safe.   I now have an interesting decision:  do i forgo the safe and get the wife first? or do i stop the risk and call it a day? I know that the police will arrive as soon as I touch the safe, so i must decide now if i want to go for gold.

#19 Re: Main Forum » Promoting Equal Distribution of Wealth » 2013-06-06 20:48:34

I think its a good thing really,  because you may have been super rich... you got robbed.. and robbed and robbed and robbed while you were away... they killed your wife and kids for good measure.  You suicide and start again with some useable cash.  Thats the game, no?

#21 Main Forum » [solved] water vs electric floor » 2013-06-05 00:03:21

Replies: 4

OK so sometimes i can water a floor - sometimes  i can't.

several times I have tried to water it,  can't,  and then try to walk on it and die.
So not being able to put water on the electric floor is not an indicator of it not being powered.
The electric meter doesn't work either so.  What gives?

Is there a way to tell if a floor is electric or not other than the  blueprint?

If so, then why can i put water sometimes and other times not?

thanks for anyone who can shed some light on this because its very frustrating to lose a game because you don't understand the rules.

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