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#351 Re: Main Forum » Stop Getting Brute-Forced! The Modular Theory of House Design » 2014-02-13 11:58:38

redxaxder wrote:

I'll just leave this here...

http://castledraft.com/editor/1ybnPD

I like this. It would allow secure wiring from a main wiring-room (like a clock) to the individual house components without risking people cutting all the way through between traps. I might try using this at some point, as a way to combine the security of a modular design with the deadliness of a giant clock.

#352 Re: Main Forum » Rob List - Hugeify Edition » 2014-02-13 11:51:28

Was this a photo-shopped screenshot, or did you actually get the list bigger? If so, can you post the modified source? I'm too lazy to actually muck around with the code, but really, really like this idea.

#353 Main Forum » Stop Getting Brute-Forced! The Modular Theory of House Design » 2014-02-12 15:51:18

Blip
Replies: 32

The rich have all been brute-forced before, and it'll probably happen again. Sometimes, however, some houses stand longer than others; many, however, get brute-forced on their way to the top, while at the bottom of the first page or top of the second. But one thing that has become painfully obvious is the method of this mid-level brute forcing - cutting through wired walls. These are the easiest weakness of the rich, and that's a good part of the game, as it gives all houses with electronics a vulnerability. However, few people have directly addressed how, in house design, to keep people from cutting through your walls and force them to solve your trap.

House design currently often utilizes devices like fail-safes to prevent cutting through walls: i.e. paradox circuits that cause any cut wall to prevent sending pulses and making a later trap functional. However, these walls are often a downfall. I've had people cut through my fail-safes, past the electronics powering them, and cut directly to the final pit trap they all are attached to. From there, they only need a ladder to take my money! Instead, I propose an idea of small, internal fail-safes based on electronics, but also a set of larger, trap-wide fail-safes based on dogs.

That brings me to the crux of this idea: divide the house into separate sections, each eventually surrounded by concrete and pits, and force robbers to solve each trap at a time. No electronics would carry over from module to module; instead, data transfer on previous trap state would be performed in two ways. For trap-to-trap data transfer, dogs chasing the robber would be used, allowing them to step across dog-commit gates later in the next trap. Also, an overarching completion counter would be implemented, allowing cats glimpsed, across pits, throughout the module traps to register whether the robber reached certain points in the trap at the right time. Thus, fail-safes would be double implemented, without the weakness of wooden walls snaking across the house.

Here's a design I made as a proof-of-concept: http://castledraft.com/editor/OX02bD
In this design, any attempts to bypass the first module is prevented by the final pit fail-safe it has, along with the dog-following fail-safe required afterwards. Any miss-decision in either also activates a cat that prevents the last part of the trap from functioning. Also, I stuck in a combination lock module just to show its security; bypassing the lock fails to get you anywhere further though the trap.

#354 Re: Main Forum » Unable to hit dogs with club » 2014-02-11 18:37:39

That's the point - smart dog placement by the trap builder makes some dogs killable only by guns.

#355 Re: Main Forum » Best way to start ? » 2014-02-11 18:35:57

I see two distinct ways to start. You could build a deathtrap and babysit it, usually while doing something else, making upgrades every 5k+ of bounties for a few hours, and end up with a great trap and house ready to rise to the top. Or, alternatively, you could use your initial cash all on tools and chain-rob, using your spoils from each robbery to fund the next, more expensive one, until you have enough to build a good house all at once. Both require lots of skill in either building (for the deathtrap strategy) or robbing (for-chain-robbing), and are both, in my opinion, equally viable and often chosen by preference. This is where the skill gap comes into play: both means of acquiring wealth require skill and experience, and are easier for good players. But aren't all games like that?

Notably, "build a house with your starting 2k then leave" is not a good strategy. You'll probably return to few, in any, security tapes; and if you did get a good chunk of bounty money, it'll have been robbed by the time you get back. However, I've had a "rich" - i.e. 25k+, but not front page until the last day - house stand for over a week recently, without making any major changes other than adding pit bulls for wife defense; so, it is possible to keep houses standing, even without Josh's strategy of eliminating all competition. tongue I did eventually get robbed by a pure brute-force overnight, but that was only once I started reaching 200k riches. The trick there is death traps; make sure that if people try to rob your house, they die trying.

#356 Re: Main Forum » Building at the start no longer a viable option? » 2014-02-09 18:34:58

Storm wrote:

wouldn't you have to constantly be monitoring your new house anyway and updating it as your value rises and you can afford it? (hence the relative boredom) If you didn't, at some point your house could easily find itself in a higher loot range vs better equipped robbers without the house upgrades to handle it.

Often its surprising the beating a relatively cheap house can withstand - however, when you really have time for your house value to skyrocket, things can go bad quick. Once, a death trap I built had about 4K when I logged off, with a simple trap system. I came back to find that, overnight, I had gotten two bounties of over 30K each, plus lots more cheap bounties and tools. The guy who robbed me and killed my wife got 100K for his efforts, coming off at a profit. He used like 10K of tools to break my place; that was more than the cost of the house itself.

So there is a bit of luck there, but isn't it that way with every way to win in this game? Personally, I love chain robbing, and find it one of the most fun ways to play; but its just so risky that I'll sometimes just try building instead.

#357 Re: Main Forum » Building at the start no longer a viable option? » 2014-02-09 17:51:48

I prefer the slower play-style. I also just have a super packed schedule even on the weekends, so I like being able to leave, come back, make a few small upgrades with a couple thousand in bounties, then leave again. It might be slow and boring to some, but its a fully viable strategy and can have some big successes, along with having the strength not worrying about dying while robbing.

#358 Re: Main Forum » Building at the start no longer a viable option? » 2014-02-09 17:24:07

I've built at the start, only did a couple small robberies, and ended up reaching 250K with three paintings. So it is possible, if you know how to build.

The tip is: use hidden commit gates and deathtraps. Something like this will get a lot of bounties from low-level robbers looking for some quick cash. They don't know how dangerous it really is, and often saunter in without tools. As bounties pour in, your house value rises, and you can either wait for a big bounty to make some major improvements, or slowly upgrade as you go along.

#359 Re: Main Forum » Being able to recover most my money upon death » 2014-02-09 17:15:48

arakira wrote:

I think all these advantages are part of Jason's devilish plan to have everyone buy the game twice smile

Then the guy with three accounts will have the big advantage. Then, once everyone has three, four is an advantage; and so on and so forth indefinitely. Jason is planning for everybody to buy infinite copies of the game! How evil.

But actually, the amount of work going into removing the advantage from alts shows that it's not an intended part of the game. I myself have an alt, which I rarely use expect to do recording (let's plays should start soon, I'm just very busy). It's really just the people who use their alt for nefarious purposes who need to be reined in.

#360 Re: Main Forum » Just killed Mr. Price » 2014-02-09 11:05:54

arakira wrote:

You are all wrong. JWG is Jason Rohrer, that's why he can tweak the game to submit a house without any vault inside, so that nobody can steal him.

No, Jason is everybody on the forums, and in game for that matter. It's all just Jason, playing against himself.

#361 Re: Main Forum » Trouble Starting » 2014-02-09 11:03:14

I often try a rob-less start. The trick is to use the most brutal deathtrap possible, and just grind bounties until you get a high one. Many times a good deathtrap can net you 20K+ within minutes, without having to rob a single person.

For example, I like to start with this design, or something like it: http://castledraft.com/editor/ocAYxy
It gets lots of kills at a really high ratio of entries to deaths (easily over 2/3 of robbers die).
From there, I wait till I get a bunch of cheaper bounties from robbers needing quick cash, usually tool-less and easy kills. Once I get some more cash, I wait till it lures in a high bounty player who sees an easy wooden house, but ends up dying. With a new bunch of cash, I upgrade the house with steel walls and electric-floor failsafes, like this: http://castledraft.com/editor/5Zwmlx
I'll then wait until I have 15K+ (or more) and build a second trap, usually one that's a guessing trap, either with commit gates or a cat combo lock. Then I'll kill some more, build a wife maze, and add some pits as a final vault trap.

With that, I ended up with a 250K, top of the list house, without robbing anybody. I myself was only robbed by a pure brute-forcer with upwards of 30K in tools. And I only died to my own self test. So it is possible to reach the top only building! It just takes some ingenuity, luck, and a whole different outlook on house design - instead of keeping your vault safe, you want, first and foremost, to lure people in and then kill them, even if luring brings them closer to your vault.

#362 Re: Main Forum » Being able to recover most my money upon death » 2014-02-09 09:52:32

This would take so much trouble to do by yourself. Every time you went out robbing, you would have to use your alt to enter your house, loiter there until you finish your robbery, then have the alt leave. If you die during the robbery, you have the alt take your money, then rob them (hoping that nobody else does). It really is a crazy exploit, but the fact that nobody has ever pulled it off until now, and nobody has ever done it alone, means that it probably won't have a really big impact anyway.

#363 Re: Main Forum » Two clock houses I wanted to share » 2014-02-09 09:23:29

I like both designs, but I would never build something like the second one. Personally, if I have to build a massive area designed for a no-tool solution to killing dogs, I just scrap the trap entirely, or add a doggie commit gate and make the dogs have to stay alive instead. Because if somebody is capable of just killing my dogs and bypassing half the house, it really isn't worth it as a trap, IMHO.

#364 Re: Main Forum » Meta-Game and Common Trap Mechanics » 2014-02-08 14:41:15

Here's a simple trick house I've been using. It's really secure and keeps the robbers out, plus keeps my family safe. With 9 different failsafes, it's a hard nut to crack, unless you know what you're doing really well. I was hoping to extend it with a second trap but I died. tongue

http://castledraft.com/editor/5Zwmlx

#365 Re: Main Forum » Linux build of the game has a little built-in cheat for magic dances! » 2014-02-07 12:55:20

largestherb wrote:

the only thing i can think of is how slowly animal shadows are faded out and if you move fast you can see where the animals are walking behind walls when they should not actually be drawn

That's not much of a cheat though; but that's all I think it could be as well. Unless there is some output in the recordedGame file that contains animal moves or something, I don't know how there could be any major, built in advantage for players. Otherwise, its a bug, and then it should be reported.

#366 Re: Main Forum » This must be a clock level? (Game death no longer your fault) » 2014-02-04 20:06:37

One thing that I'm surprised we haven't yet seen is a house that combines pets, buttons, and maybe powered doors with clocks to prevent you from walking back and forth and figuring out the clock cycle. I was considering building a house this coming weekend where the clock only begins once a door locks behind you, preventing the back and forth tricks to figure out the cycle. That would essentially force people to guess and die - but also mean that they went in with full knowledge of their death by locking themselves in a corridor of pits behind a door.

#367 Re: Main Forum » Cheater? or Mormon? » 2014-02-01 19:20:31

jasonrohrer wrote:

Wife must step NEXT to vault in her last step (so she steps next to vault when the robber steps onto the vault).  Haven't tested whether shotgun carry is necessary.

Also amusing that the second wife can pick up an invisible shotgun from the trigger lock.

Ooh! Time to build a wife army! tongue

Edit: Yup, it works! Cool!

#368 Re: Main Forum » My newfound love for cats(ingame cats) » 2014-02-01 15:26:22

iceman wrote:

I've always wanted to make a maze-type house, and just put a cat at the beginning.  I wonder how many people would try to follow it =P

Literally 90% of people would. If I see a cat, I'm either following it or turning back, no matter what.

#369 Re: Main Forum » Cheater? or Mormon? » 2014-02-01 15:24:29

This is very odd... I wonder how it happens? I would probably guess that it involves multiple SQL queries that contradicted themselves regarding wife placement, i.e. two requests for a house map are made at the exact same time (within machine precision) and a map is sent to both.  Both clients return a final map. Somehow, there is a problem regarding either two wives in the same tile or multiple wives in different tiles. The server solves this by having both wives there.

At least that's my guess.

#370 Re: Main Forum » Career style » 2014-02-01 15:17:15

As somebody who's been playing for so long, I would say that I normally do a slow build by instinct. I've tried chain robbing, and did pretty well at it, but it just isn't my natural playstyle. I usually only try a chain robbery when I have plans for building a house that needs a crazy amount of cash to build and can't be built over time. Also, with the packed weekly schedule I have, a slow build style is more fun by allowing my house to get money throughout the day from bounties, then upgrading bit by bit in the evening when I can play.

#371 Main Forum » [Bug] Steam Overlay Not Working » 2014-01-31 20:30:25

Blip
Replies: 2

On Mac OSX (and possible Windows and Linux, haven't checked yet), the Steam Overlay function doesn't work. I'm running the game at default settings, including windowed, and when I press shift+tab, nothing happens. Is this intentional, or a bug?

#372 Re: Main Forum » HELP: Rethinking the tool dropping stuff » 2014-01-31 20:28:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Blip, I just realized something big:

There's another "bin" for each player in the game, which is "carried_vault_contents".

Essentially, when you rob another house but haven't returned home yet, that stuff you stole isn't put into your vault yet.  You might not be able to come home, because a robber could be in your house, and it would be weird for the stuff you just stole to be stolen by this robber, even though you haven't even been home yet.

SO... you carry it with you, invisibly, even if you rob multiple houses before returning home (you usually don't, because you'll likely have your own house open up at SOME point).  As you rob more, that bin keeps accumulating what you take.

Then, when you FINALLY return home, it gets put in your vault.  After you leave home again, it can be stolen.

[...]

So, after being broken once, the vault never "functions" until the owner returns.  That would make the whole thing consistent (tools dropped up before the first vault reach are stolen by the first vault reach, but anything dropped after that cannot be stolen).


ANYWAY, the other good thing about this is that robbers have further disincentive to "over tool" when robbing a house (because the owner will be given a gift basket of stuff to rebuild with and potentially seek revenge with).

This seems like it would work! Of course, that's assuming that the "carried vault contents" can be utilized while the player is offline, and that its use in this manner doesn't mess anything up. For example, if somebody robs you with excess tools, then you rob a house, that would need to contain both the money you robbed plus dropped tools. If that works properly, it should be fine.

However, as jere said, this would just make people absolutely destroy houses if possible, using all of their tools to before reaching the vault, making it even harder for somebody to rebuild; more of their house would be destroyed and they would still have the same amount to spend fixing it.

#373 Main Forum » The Wealth Gap and the Skill Gap » 2014-01-31 13:04:56

Blip
Replies: 12

Look on the steam forums. People are complaining about difficulty and how they can't make any money. Then, look at these forums. People are lamenting how we have hundreds of thousands of dollars and nothing to do with it other than wreck houses arbitrarily. There's a massive wealth gap in the game, and it seems that, even after death, the same players rise to the top - namely the alpha players, or the veterans, who know what we're doing. Nobody else stands a chance if they're new to the game. New Steam players, trying to figure out how a voltage triggered switch even works, have no chance of robbing a house controlled by three cats and a clock! They just keep dying and pouring even more wealth into the hands of the rich. And we let them! The rich and knowledgeable are letting this happen because it's good for us; but it's not good for the game as a whole. There aren't enough resources on how to play the game well; the wiki's mediocre at best, and then there are a couple outdated videos on YouTube, plus a couple forum threads. This really does little at best. We need to get a way for new players to learn, and we need to create it fast - otherwise they'll leave and the game population will plummet.

Any suggestions?

#374 Re: Main Forum » HELP: Rethinking the tool dropping stuff » 2014-01-31 12:55:36

If tools were left upon fleeing, the "Scary Turtle" would become a viable option again. Instead of building the clever deathtraps that we build currently, people would just try build the scariest looking stuff they could and get tools from robbers just leaving after seeing the first part of the trap.

I think that tool transfer on vault reach would just cause people to break through your house once with lots of tools, leave the extra, then come back again to pick them up. It would allow for people to bring ridiculous amounts of tools to any house, decimate their way to the vault, then come back to reclaim any tools they didn't use! Under the current system, bringing too many tools means that you lost the ones you don't use; thus, there is an incentive to use the minimum amount of tools for a robbery (until you get up to the ultra-rich, where you just destroy houses to eliminate the threat of the same happening to you.) And it usually works; lower houses are rarely, if ever, robbed with a massive amount of tools. If they were, the game would get even harder on new players and easier for the veterans.

#375 Re: Main Forum » Preventing Griefers » 2014-01-31 12:47:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, does it strike anyone else as crazy that there were 81,000 robbery attempts yesterday?  :-)

Wow. That's a LOT of robberies.

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