Stop Getting Brute-Forced! The Modular Theory of House Design

Blip · 2014-02-12 15:51:18

The rich have all been brute-forced before, and it'll probably happen again. Sometimes, however, some houses stand longer than others; many, however, get brute-forced on their way to the top, while at the bottom of the first page or top of the second. But one thing that has become painfully obvious is the method of this mid-level brute forcing - cutting through wired walls. These are the easiest weakness of the rich, and that's a good part of the game, as it gives all houses with electronics a vulnerability. However, few people have directly addressed how, in house design, to keep people from cutting through your walls and force them to solve your trap.

House design currently often utilizes devices like fail-safes to prevent cutting through walls: i.e. paradox circuits that cause any cut wall to prevent sending pulses and making a later trap functional. However, these walls are often a downfall. I've had people cut through my fail-safes, past the electronics powering them, and cut directly to the final pit trap they all are attached to. From there, they only need a ladder to take my money! Instead, I propose an idea of small, internal fail-safes based on electronics, but also a set of larger, trap-wide fail-safes based on dogs.

That brings me to the crux of this idea: divide the house into separate sections, each eventually surrounded by concrete and pits, and force robbers to solve each trap at a time. No electronics would carry over from module to module; instead, data transfer on previous trap state would be performed in two ways. For trap-to-trap data transfer, dogs chasing the robber would be used, allowing them to step across dog-commit gates later in the next trap. Also, an overarching completion counter would be implemented, allowing cats glimpsed, across pits, throughout the module traps to register whether the robber reached certain points in the trap at the right time. Thus, fail-safes would be double implemented, without the weakness of wooden walls snaking across the house.

Here's a design I made as a proof-of-concept: http://castledraft.com/editor/OX02bD
In this design, any attempts to bypass the first module is prevented by the final pit fail-safe it has, along with the dog-following fail-safe required afterwards. Any miss-decision in either also activates a cat that prevents the last part of the trap from functioning. Also, I stuck in a combination lock module just to show its security; bypassing the lock fails to get you anywhere further though the trap.

Last edited by Blip (2014-02-12 15:51:35)

Sybernetik · 2014-02-12 16:25:15

As the game stands now, no house design can prevent brute forcing. Every square in the house has a tool that provides a solution. In the example you gave, only 5 saws, 5 explosives and 1 ladder is needed to get to the safe. You can't force a robber with enough tools to do anything. Combo locks are absolutely useless against a well tooled robber. I robbed someone with 2 combo locks in their house earlier today, just saw to power supply and kill it, no more combo lock. Leap of faith commit gates are easily defeated with a ladder.

JoyOfTrapping · 2014-02-12 16:43:32

Blip wrote:

I've had people cut through my fail-safes, past the electronics powering them, and cut directly to the final pit trap they all are attached to. From there, they only need a ladder to take my money!

Oh boy, have I had that happen to me. Your proposed solution is good though- divide the house up into modular blocks on separate power grids divided by concrete wall sections. I looked at your design, it was good. You essentially built several different houses on one map. Solve this, solve that, then solve that. Of course the very wealthy can still hack their way through this but what all can't be solved with enough time and enough tools.

The houses I have built that have been most successful are those in which I laboriously thought out the concept in a distinct and clean stage-by-stage manner. Like they have a choice of these 1-3 deathtraps, then the correct one may branch into another two, etc. And you make these stages sort of modular blocks, as you described. Brute forcing is generally less successful when you do this. Houses fall more easily when you build out the whole design from very early in the house's life cycle and everything gets closely connected to one another, or at least very thinly separated.

The only challenge here is that packing all that power into a small space requires a lot of money, and time, and skill- fitting more than one "house" into the space of one actual house's floor plan. But that's kind of the nature of things.

Pandamonium · 2014-02-12 17:51:50

Sybernetik wrote:

As the game stands now, no house design can prevent brute forcing. Every square in the house has a tool that provides a solution.

I've designed a 60k house using castledraft, with so.... many "Modules", however at the end of it all, I came to realise this.

Even the dogie double commitment gates can be overcome easily with water+ladder. even arrays of pits, can be overcome.

There is nothing that can't be brute forced with say 100 of each tool.

Storm · 2014-02-12 19:02:22

well, I've finally devised an anti-bruteforce method. its unique as far as I can tell, we'll see how it goes in the field...

Pandamonium · 2014-02-12 20:05:26

Storm wrote:

well, I've finally devised an anti-bruteforce method. its unique as far as I can tell, we'll see how it goes in the field...

First off good luck!

But in theory isn't it always possible to bruteforce everything?
let us know how you go.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-12 20:07:09

yes storm, please let us know.

Storm · 2014-02-12 20:33:17

thats a cool idea you got there Blip, let us know how your progress with it goes

Pandamonium wrote:

in theory isn't it always possible to bruteforce everything?
let us know how you go.

yes thats true. But in practice its not without it's limits (money and item slots). I spent the last few days bruteforcing- that was a real fancy double bitlock you built btw that took up half your map bypassed w 3 ladders whoever that was- and got a good idea of how to attempt to trick bruteforcers into misusing their assets. the primary target of my design is not to kill them but to drain enough of their resources (which given the right environment can happen a lot faster than you think) until they cant afford to go on anymore giving you time to react. ie bruteforce them. and also reducing scouting value they get on attempts. Not sure if ill clear my house and try my new design just yet. i kindof want to watch my current house get taken down

Last edited by Storm (2014-02-12 20:55:14)

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-12 20:35:32

Although it is possible to brute-force anything, you first need the money. It is possible to build a house that will most likely survive the entire fortune of one the current top players being spent on it. As Mr Price I had someone come in with $120k of tools and fail. Not too many players are going to be willing to spend more money than you hold busting into your house so as long as you can defend against that amount you should most likely be fine unless someone extremely rich sees you as a threat.

As Blip says, making sure that a player cannot just use there large collection of saws to smash through is important. Modules is a great idea and houses with disconnected elements are generally the hardest to bust through. When brute forcing I generally take lots of saws and only a few explosives and ladders and this tends to work for most houses.

iceman · 2014-02-12 21:02:49

Of course ANY house is going to be brute forced with hundreds of tools. However, the point of "hard to brute force" houses is to make it VERY expensive. That's why the "information" being transmitted through cats and switches instead of wired walls is important in Blip's design - it needs tools more than 3 times as expensive to pass. It's trivial to bring hundreds of saws, and when you have that many you don't mind wasting 20 to see if a wire leads somewhere. Pits, on the other hand, need ladders that are much rarer and are very likely to be used later down the robbery. You don't just go wasting ladders seeing if something might be important when every ladder might be the difference between reaching the safe and reaching 2 tiles away. (Of course, all of this is moot if you have 300 ladders, but that's not realistic).

As for building houses that are difficult to brute force - I think the best way is to build traps that trick the robber into putting themselves at risk while thinking that they have the right tools to survive - and then killing them when they use their tools. A cheap, basic type of this trap is this:

http://castledraft.com/editor/dz10Bj

Most of the time, these hallways of death can be fairly cheaply passed by a wire cutter and some water. When the screen scrolls and you see the dog, cut the Electric Floor in front of you, and when you step on it the dog turns on the trap - all the other EF's can be passed with water. If the robber's planning on doing that here, though, they'll die - when they cut the floor, power will stop looping back to inverted switch at the top, and power will come from the beginning of the trap, frying the robber before he has the chance to step on the safe spot.

Although this is very effective against people who aren't expecting it, it can be cheaply passed by people who are. Simply cut any electric floors that are connected to a power line in the back, then repeat the process above (the power has been cut off). If they brought enough wire cutters, then they can just cut every wire, never putting themselves at risk at all.

An idea that I've been toying with is similar, and more expensive to safely get past it.

http://castledraft.com/editor/7FuDhL

This is almost the exact same trap as before. However, it costs 1800 per tile to be completely safe instead of 400. Because of that, it's much more likely that the robber will use the plan with the first trap, go along until they see the dog about to turn off the pits, then use a tool to get out. The *safest* thing at that point is to use a ladder, and step on it - then, you saw through the walls. However, the robber could easily think of a cheaper option - saw through the wall immediately, saving that ladder for later in the robbery. Both sides seem to be powered, so they might not think it matters, giving them a 50/50 chance of survival (although they think it's 100). If they think one side of walls is a trap and not powered, they'll be much more likely to think the bottom one is powered - the electric door (which is the most expensive way of keeping someone from sawing through the supporting walls from the beginning) connected to it is closed, and the switch seems to be connected to the bottom. So, they'll cut the top wall - and promptly die by falling into a suddenly unpowered pit. The design needs to be worked on a bit to not make it obvious that the door and wire direction are red herrings, but I think it could work well.

Anyways, I think those types of designs stand the best against *single* brute force robberies. They trick the robber into not using the safest tools, and killing him for it. It won't work for the same person twice, but you'll have at the very least 24 hours before they can make another attempt. More than likely, it'll be longer, since they'll have to raise enough money for another brute force.

Last edited by iceman (2014-02-12 21:21:59)

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-12 21:14:47

iceman wrote:

An idea that I've been toying with is similar, and more expensive to safely get past it.
http://castledraft.com/editor/GIjo48
This is almost the exact same trap as before. However, it costs 1800 per tile to be completely safe instead of 400. Because of that, it's much more likely that the robber will use the plan with the first trap, go along until they see the dog about to turn off the pits, then use a tool to get out. The *safest* thing at that point is to use a ladder, and step on it - then, you saw through the walls. However, the robber could easily think of a cheaper option - saw through the wall immediately, saving that ladder for later in the robbery. Both sides seem to be powered, so they might not think it matters, giving them a 50/50 chance of survival (although they think it's 100). If they think one side of walls is a trap and not powered, they'll be much more likely to think the bottom one is powered - the electric door (which is the most expensive way of keeping someone from sawing through the supporting walls from the beginning) connected to it is closed, and the switch seems to be connected to the bottom. So, they'll cut the top wall - and promptly die by falling into a suddenly unpowered pit. The design needs to be worked on a bit to not make it obvious that the door and wire direction are red herrings, but I think it could work well.

doesnt the door pass power up into the pits?

Storm · 2014-02-12 21:18:46

neither of those objects are conductive

iceman · 2014-02-12 21:23:35

Like storm said, doors (or pits) don't conduct power. I just realized that that fact gives my trap away, though - the first pit (that was above the powered door) *couldn't* have recieved power from below (because of the powered door), so it had to be coming from the top. I removed the first pit in the link to fix that issue.

Storm · 2014-02-12 21:29:18

iceman wrote:

An idea that I've been toying with is similar, and more expensive to safely get past it.
http://castledraft.com/editor/GIjo48

thats a cool trick. a line of electrical walls functions just like a safety bridge to a bruteforcer tho. I dont think a good one would step foot on a power trap door thats not covered by a ladder in the first place. I think a good bruteforcer (the kind you'd expect to be in your house when at the top of the list) isn't going to die ever unless they just get unlucky. mispressing a button, cat on keyboard etc... the whole point of bruteforcing is never having to roll the dice. so if you build to drain their resources, you have the same chance of killing the good ones only you're focused on a more effective objective.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-12 21:34:09

Storm wrote:

neither of those objects are conductive

it appears you are correct ( i checked).

iceman wrote:

Like storm said, doors (or pits) don't conduct power. I just realized that that fact gives my trap away, though - the first pit (that was above the powered door) *couldn't* have recieved power from below (because of the powered door), so it had to be coming from the top. I removed the first pit in the link to fix that issue.

that change does make it more credible, but i think the trap was fine even before. i think a lot of people who are new (like me) don't know that doors and pits don't conduct. Its very good that i know that noww becaues i could have totally screwed myself with a new trap.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-12 21:35:57

Storm wrote:

iceman wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with is similar, and more expensive to safely get past it.
http://castledraft.com/editor/GIjo48
thats a cool trick. a line of electrical walls functions just like a safety bridge to a bruteforcer tho. I dont think a good one would step foot on a power trap door thats not covered by a ladder in the first place. I think a good bruteforcer (the kind you'd expect to be in your house when at the top of the list) isn't going to die ever unless they just get unlucky. mispressing a button, cat on keyboard etc... the whole point of bruteforcing is never having to roll the dice. so if you build to drain their resources, you have the same chance of killing the good ones only you're focused on a more effective objective.

i'm new but have gotten relatively close to the top. i've been having a lot of problems with brute forcers, so could you share some tips, like stuff in your new house? no need to show the whole thing, i'm not trying to break in, just wondering how you do it.

Storm · 2014-02-12 22:01:57

Storm wrote:

Pandamonium wrote:
in theory isn't it always possible to bruteforce everything?
let us know how you go.
yes thats true. But in practice its not without it's limits (money and item slots). I spent the last few days bruteforcing- that was a real fancy double bitlock you built btw that took up half your map bypassed w 3 ladders whoever that was- and got a good idea of how to attempt to trick bruteforcers into misusing their assets. the primary target of my design is not to kill them but to drain enough of their resources (which given the right environment can happen a lot faster than you think) until they cant afford to go on anymore giving you time to react. ie bruteforce them. and also reducing scouting value they get on attempts. Not sure if ill clear my house and try my new design just yet. i kindof want to watch my current house get taken down

I havent built it yet, just made a design. yeah ill share it once I test it out a bit. who knows, it may fail miserably. I think the logic is sound though. some general bruteforcing/counterforcing tips:

1. electrical walls are like bridges, dont connect them to anything you want someone to easily have access to. as a bruteforcer: cool, they built me a safety bridge...
2. I think Blip said it well when he said build modular. keep things compact, reduces scouting value and lets you pack more in which forces them to spend resources. think in terms of squares moved per resource spent (items). a larger more elaborate trap allows them to move more spaces (scouting, closer to vault) while spending less resources.
3. as a bruteforcer, never put yourself in a possibility of danger. thats why you brought all those tools you cheap bastard. never step on a grate/pit unless you see everything that connects to it in plain view(including animals that spot you), always disable with cheapest/most abundant resource at the time. never block yourself in. if you didnt bring doorstops to save an item slot(smart)then just cut around any powered doors before they open/shut. keep notes on your scouting info in case you run out of items and must leave. if you can kill the wife, then things wont reset and youll save a bunch of money on consecutive trips.
4.place your wife by the entrance with a shotgun so somebody shoots her in the head early. shes not worth the liability.
5.outside of the house tactics- keep your house off the first page till you have a solid plan. or someone adopting the late Mr. Price's meta will target you. theres lots of ways to blow your money... paintings cheap on AH... or if you feel like being a dick, blow all your money down to $2k on tools and go completely obliterate someones easy house (you can always blame Price for their misfortune). haha

just some stuff i've picked up so far... hope it helps add to this great game we got goin here. thx again for makin it jason

Last edited by Storm (2014-02-12 22:06:19)

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-13 07:47:28

My no.1 tip for learning how to stop people brute forcing you: try brute forcing lots of houses yourself and see what houses are hardest. Then use what you learn to build a house that you would personally find tricky to brute force.

redxaxder · 2014-02-13 08:00:23

I'll just leave this here...

http://castledraft.com/editor/1ybnPD

Last edited by redxaxder (2014-02-13 08:04:56)

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-13 08:09:03

redxaxder wrote:

I'll just leave this here...
http://castledraft.com/editor/nLABeP

Hmm, brick the cat, take 2 steps, club the dog.

Nice idea though . Possibly this would work better: http://castledraft.com/editor/eIKbHc

Of course, one gun is cheaper to buy than 4 saws, but guns are much less common to find lying around and less likely to be held by a robber.

Wapato · 2014-02-13 08:14:59

The dog in the wall trick works well if the brute forcer isn't paying 100% attention. Just stick the dog somewhere the electrical wall makes a turn. The robber cuts along a line of electrical walls and never registers the dog.

Caught a chain robber with 40k in tools to this simple trap. This didn't help my house value though and Mr Ricks quickly dismantled my unfinished house.

redxaxder · 2014-02-13 09:02:17

joshwithguitar wrote:

redxaxder wrote:
I'll just leave this here...
http://castledraft.com/editor/nLABeP
Hmm, brick the cat, take 2 steps, club the dog.
Nice idea though . Possibly this would work better: http://castledraft.com/editor/eIKbHc

redxaxder wrote:

I'll just leave this here...
http://castledraft.com/editor/1ybnPD

4 minutes
Last edited by redxaxder (Today 10:04:56)
joshwithguitar Today 10:09:03
You loaded the thread too soon

I think it's a win if you compare the sell value of the saws to the buy value of the gun.

Last edited by redxaxder (2014-02-13 09:03:24)

jere · 2014-02-13 09:16:23

That's some kind of brilliant iceman. I'm trying to reach the top again and I need something like that when I get there.

Blip · 2014-02-13 11:58:38

redxaxder wrote:

I'll just leave this here...
http://castledraft.com/editor/1ybnPD

I like this. It would allow secure wiring from a main wiring-room (like a clock) to the individual house components without risking people cutting all the way through between traps. I might try using this at some point, as a way to combine the security of a modular design with the deadliness of a giant clock.

nathan · 2014-02-13 15:43:34

The problem with Blip's design is that it just isn't cost effective. While the house costs about $50,000 to build, the tools to break it only cost about $10,000. When I started playing, one of my most successful houses worked kind of like this, but cheaper. There were multiple easy to defeat systems, all with wires leading to a series of trapdoors in the corner, after which came the vault. However, this design was mostly based on psychology. It worked sort of like those Nigerian prince scams. "Oh! That moron just used wooden walls! I'll just cut through those!" and so on. After one easy to defeat with brute force system was another, then another, than another. If they managed to break out into the open, they'd discover that they had committed to multiple traps, had wasted all of their tools so they couldn't get out, and worse, they couldn't get into my vault, as it was guarded by a corridor of trap doors that could only open if someone solved my house correctly. It worked fairly well for a while, and was my first house to survive overnight. I could get a couple of traps on my base $2000, and could easily add more traps, just placing the entrance to one next to the exit of the other. The point is, you want to make the robber waste all of their tools and die, rather than actually paying quite a bit of money to get through your traps because they can just cut vertically in a straight line.

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#1 2014-02-12 15:51:18

Stop Getting Brute-Forced! The Modular Theory of House Design

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Re: Stop Getting Brute-Forced! The Modular Theory of House Design

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