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#51 2014-04-15 15:16:42

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

In his house, whether the buttons are sticky or not makes no difference, as there's a leap of faith there anyway. However, the non sticky buttons could technically be hooked up to a press counter (a complex piece of electronics zed and I thought up back in v8 that counts the amount of times a button has been pressed), thus making the lock very, very hard to guess. It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#52 2014-04-15 15:17:32

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Iceman has given a plausible explanation.
I don't think there's any way to verify if someone cheated or not.

I'm just here to ask one question that might have been missed.
Did you get any 1 step suicide tapes?
If so, it's possible someone died from the cops but saw more of your map than you think he did.

After reviewing, http://castledraft.com/editor/ybMSKJ
I figure I'd lend you the mind of a robber so you can understand that percentages only apply to no tool solutions
You have to consider a tooled solution when designing your house.
------
1st life, 1st visit, initial scout.
... Find a dog, go home.
1st life, 2nd visit, 1 meat.
... Find the commit gate that I can short, and see it's a bit lock with toggle switches (yay, I can try multiple combos).
1st life, 3rd visit, 1 meat, 1 water.
... Find out I can't verify multiple combos since its a leap of faith (boo!). However, checking down the hallway shows the circuitry is possibly only 4 walls deep. Meaning I could get past it with 5 saws to get past the trapdoor, or I could use 5 saws to figure out two buttons. A ladder is cheaper and I can then try to figure out the combo, which I plan to do in the next life. But let's make my life easier and find out one of the buttons in this life.
1st life, 4th visit, 4 saws, 1 water.
... Burrow down the last button. At this point I would try a combination and leap since my saws didn't affect anything. However some people could choose to wait for the cops or force exit the client to prevent you from seeing the last tape.

Review my recorded games and finish up any details I incorrectly mapped.

2nd life, 1st visit, 1 meat, 1 water, 1 ladder.
... Ladder up the trapdoor, but don't go past it since the chihuahua may turn it off. Figure out the combination. Then figure out if the chihuahua will turn it off. Discover its the same style trap with only 3 sticky combos. Optional try and die or cop death again.
3rd life, 1st visit, 1 ladder, 1 meat, 1 water.
... Enter the combo, leap the first one. Ladder the second one. Vault.
This is assuming you don't change anything of course of 3 days, but imagine I had 2 other friends I can pass the knowledge to. You would have a small window to change it. Sorry, but map sharing is something that can't be solved at all, it's just inherent to the game.
------

Improvements.
1. I don't like combo locks. Too much space. However, if you are gonna use it. Use sticky buttons and make it 6 saws deep (2k's can't figure out your combo with dives).  This also will save space on the dog jump since you won't need it.
2. Use a powered door instead of a trapdoor for the combo lock. It'll take a crowbar $2400 to brute force, which means 2k divers can't go past it (comparing to a trapdoor).
3. The dog and powered door only take $200 to be able to come back. This means 10 tries per 2k life if you change it to a door (verifiable). I wouldn't use the door, it's not cost effective. You can use the money you saved from not using a trapdoor to afford another trapdoor and pit (from chihuahua dance) to afford more commit dogs in the front. I believe dogs to be a great investment since when you need to change things around you have to pay for powered doors again, but you don't have to pay for dogs again.
4. 3 button combo locks can be solved with minimal saws, as Iceman pointed out. They are a big waste of space. Ordered combo locks can't be solved with minimal saws, however, they take up too much space too.
5. Check out the guides in my signature, maybe you'll find something new.

Hopefully this will help you in your struggle against the unfair world of Castle Doctrine. Happy Building smile


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#53 2014-04-15 15:21:15

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Haha, I just realized I gave you a security tape of you getting robbed over 3 days in a text format. Hopefully you enjoy reading as much as I enjoy watching someone solve my house.


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#54 2014-04-15 15:22:28

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Blip wrote:

In his house, whether the buttons are sticky or not makes no difference, as there's a leap of faith there anyway. However, the non sticky buttons could technically be hooked up to a press counter (a complex piece of electronics zed and I thought up back in v8 that counts the amount of times a button has been pressed), thus making the lock very, very hard to guess. It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.

Actually, I've robbed his house before. all the leap of faith is, is a chihuahua way above you stepping on a button as you walk over an umpowered pit. all i did to rob him was break to the chihuahua and press the button myself. then i could try all the combos because the buttons weren't sticky. otherwise, i would have had to break back to the chihuahua again everytime using many tools.


It's a trap!

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#55 2014-04-15 17:21:28

gyuri
Member
Registered: 2013-07-09
Posts: 231

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Blip wrote:

It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.

I just had a low budget house with this combo lock: http://castledraft.com/editor/bjec2Q

You have to press the first toggle switch twice and avoid the other two. It looks cheap and noobish, but I think it's not too easy to guess the combination, especially with a pitbull right behind you that gives you just enough time to press two buttons. And you don't really need any press counter or fancy stuff like that.

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#56 2014-04-15 18:37:10

GotABigTrap
Member
Registered: 2014-02-26
Posts: 200

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

The biggest flaw in the map is that the buttons are not sticky.  All you need is a doorstop.  Let the dog see you and walk back out to the enterance hallway, step him down to be adjacent to the trap door.  At this point it is a matter of trying all the combinations.  You can basically do the same thing for the 2nd dog.  Once the first lock is solved you let the 2nd dog see you, backtrack to the enterance again to get him to power the trapdoor.  Since you can try all this with just a doorstop, I don't think it would last long.  One thing I usually do is power the buttons with electric floor so the only way back is to break the lock itself.

Using a leap of faith is a pretty good idea, but you should do something to constrain the dog a bit more.  For example, make it so the dog will be killed if the robber tries to backtrack once it has seen you.

Last edited by GotABigTrap (2014-04-15 18:38:30)

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#57 2014-04-15 18:58:47

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

GotABigTrap wrote:

All you need is a doorstop.  Let the dog see you and walk back out to the entrance hallway, step him down to be adjacent to the trap door.  At this point it is a matter of trying all the combinations.  You can basically do the same thing for the 2nd dog.  Once the first lock is solved you let the 2nd dog see you, backtrack to the enterance again to get him to power the trapdoor...

Totally forgot about the space the entrance gave to maneuver the chihuahua. This would allow you to figure out the gate on the first trip. However the second one has sticky switches so it'll require a revisit.
Each guess costs meat, doorstop, for the second gate. Which makes a high chance of getting to the vault in the first life, and a 100% chance on the second life.

Thanks for the reminder GotABigTrap.


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#58 2014-04-15 23:26:47

uncastlebar
Member
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 35

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

GotABigTrap wrote:

The biggest flaw in the map is that the buttons are not sticky.  All you need is a doorstop.  Let the dog see you and walk back out to the enterance hallway, step him down to be adjacent to the trap door.  At this point it is a matter of trying all the combinations.  You can basically do the same thing for the 2nd dog.  Once the first lock is solved you let the 2nd dog see you, backtrack to the enterance again to get him to power the trapdoor.  Since you can try all this with just a doorstop, I don't think it would last long.  One thing I usually do is power the buttons with electric floor so the only way back is to break the lock itself.

Using a leap of faith is a pretty good idea, but you should do something to constrain the dog a bit more.  For example, make it so the dog will be killed if the robber tries to backtrack once it has seen you.

And to cylene -

Starting crying now:

THE MAP IS ONLY A PRINCIPE SKETCH!

MY MAP HAS NO DOG!

For you I should sketch it in the lower screen so no TESTFLOOR is avaible.

Please think about it.

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#59 2014-04-15 23:39:44

uncastlebar
Member
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 35

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Cylence wrote:

Iceman has given a plausible explanation.
I don't think there's any way to verify if someone cheated or not.

I'm just here to ask one question that might have been missed.
Did you get any 1 step suicide tapes?
If so, it's possible someone died from the cops but saw more of your map than you think he did.
...

Thank you for you detailed answer and explaining the cop thing.

Maybe at over 200 robbers there was 1 or 2 suicide at the entrance.
This is the only logical answer for me. Because nobody ever exaimed my circuit.
IMHO: This is a very weak softwarepart for hackers.

Cylence wrote:

2. Use a powered door instead of a trapdoor for the combo lock. It'll take a crowbar $2400 to brute force, which means 2k divers can't go past it (comparing to a trapdoor).
4. 3 button combo locks can be solved with minimal saws, as Iceman pointed out. They are a big waste of space. Ordered combo locks can't be solved with minimal saws, however, they take up too much space too.

I dont agree in this points because electric floor and powered door have powered to work.
I prefer powered trapdoors. They work unpowered. And I made my circuit that for every destruction cut the power line!

A 3 digit switch can be very powerfull with counter. Please read Blips text. He wrote exacly what I mean.

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#60 2014-04-15 23:41:45

uncastlebar
Member
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 35

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Lord0fHam wrote:
Blip wrote:

In his house, whether the buttons are sticky or not makes no difference, as there's a leap of faith there anyway. However, the non sticky buttons could technically be hooked up to a press counter (a complex piece of electronics zed and I thought up back in v8 that counts the amount of times a button has been pressed), thus making the lock very, very hard to guess. It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.

Actually, I've robbed his house before. all the leap of faith is, is a chihuahua way above you stepping on a button as you walk over an umpowered pit. all i did to rob him was break to the chihuahua and press the button myself. then i could try all the combos because the buttons weren't sticky. otherwise, i would have had to break back to the chihuahua again everytime using many tools.

Who am I. And who are you!?

Please stop fooling me around!

Is there any ignore function at this board?

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#61 2014-04-15 23:46:01

uncastlebar
Member
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 35

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

gyuri wrote:
Blip wrote:

It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.

I just had a low budget house with this combo lock: http://castledraft.com/editor/bjec2Q

You have to press the first toggle switch twice and avoid the other two. It looks cheap and noobish, but I think it's not too easy to guess the combination, especially with a pitbull right behind you that gives you just enough time to press two buttons. And you don't really need any press counter or fancy stuff like that.

Gyuri and Blip,

big thanks for explaining.

Im to bad in writing explainings so people can not follow me.

So thank you very much smile

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#62 2014-04-16 02:09:14

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

uncastlebar wrote:

I dont agree in this points because electric floor and powered door have powered to work.
I prefer powered trapdoors. They work unpowered. And I made my circuit that for every destruction cut the power line!

I figured I will try to persuade you one more time. This time with an example.
Here's an example of making the combo lock for a powered door, using your format.
http://castledraft.com/editor/udt8bi
This stays closed unless you put in the right code, or you bust through and water the source that's holding the door closed.

I'll understand if you still like powered trapdoors, they have more benefits against players trying to stay alive.

Happy Building.


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#63 2014-04-16 02:31:19

uncastlebar
Member
Registered: 2014-04-04
Posts: 35

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Cylene,

I understand your principe.

But Imho these trap is too unsave.

You have just 32 posibilities and some robber can try several times and look at the door.
I would chose this version only in pregame with less money.

A dog will it make more interresting like:

http://castledraft.com/editor/NumM7K

so the robber without meat hase just one try.


Edit: Or additional a second door that give the robber also just one try:

http://castledraft.com/editor/cYDxs8

Last edited by uncastlebar (2014-04-16 02:39:28)

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#64 2014-04-16 03:15:11

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

Yeah, you can make getting to the lock as hard as you want. I'm just suggesting the use of powered door smile.

Edit: added a short example of making it harder.
http://castledraft.com/editor/5p7BNk

Last edited by Cylence (2014-04-16 03:21:35)


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#65 2014-04-16 10:17:12

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

If you want to use the leap of faith of a trapdoor and security of a powered door, why not use both?

http://castledraft.com/editor/egcQHN

The trapdoor can only be crossed once.  People will see the door being open, and run for it, hoping that the trapdoor will close.  It does, and they think they made it, when suddenly the powered door shuts in their face.  They try to make it back, the trapdoor opens, and they fall to their doom.


But while we're improving this house, why not take it a step further?

http://castledraft.com/editor/tK422B

First of all, you have to complete a little, 1 button magic dance to get by the trapdoors.  The trapdoors can still only be crossed once, but now it's much harder to break into the dog's room, *and* if you get rid of the dog, you'll have to brute force past the trapdoors as well.

The door is closed at the start.  Taking a page from Blip's book, pressing the right-most button will open the door, making it seem safe.  Then, when you get by the trapdoors, the powered door shuts itself in your face, forcing you to crowbar it.

Still, someone with a water and 2 ladders could just make the trapdoors safe, and then try all the solutions.  Well, that might not work- unbeknowest to them, the left most toggle switch is secretly a sticky switch, so if they press it, they'll never get the right solution! (The whole thing should be moved over a bit as well, since there's only 1 concrete wall by the latch right now.)

And finally, for someone who just wants to brute force past the powered door- it looks like the power is only coming from the left wall, so they explode the wall there and cut the wired wall.  The powered door is still on, though, because it's powered from the bottom, so they'll have to spend another explosive to get by- $2800 to get by the powered door, instead of $2400 to just crowbar it!

Last edited by iceman (2014-04-16 10:25:46)


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#66 2014-04-16 10:25:02

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

uncastlebar wrote:
Lord0fHam wrote:
Blip wrote:

In his house, whether the buttons are sticky or not makes no difference, as there's a leap of faith there anyway. However, the non sticky buttons could technically be hooked up to a press counter (a complex piece of electronics zed and I thought up back in v8 that counts the amount of times a button has been pressed), thus making the lock very, very hard to guess. It would be interesting to see somebody build a phony combo lock with the real solution being a single-button press counter.

Actually, I've robbed his house before. all the leap of faith is, is a chihuahua way above you stepping on a button as you walk over an umpowered pit. all i did to rob him was break to the chihuahua and press the button myself. then i could try all the combos because the buttons weren't sticky. otherwise, i would have had to break back to the chihuahua again everytime using many tools.

Who am I. And who are you!?

Please stop fooling me around!

Is there any ignore function at this board?

I believe you are Roscoe Keith Ward who used to have the monkey in a jail suit painting. (whatever it's called).


It's a trap!

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#67 2014-04-16 15:43:40

Cylence
Member
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 346

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

iceman wrote:

If you want to use the leap of faith of a trapdoor and security of a powered door, why not use both?

Simply because beating the combo lock with saws solves both the magic dance leap of faith and the powered door. Why add more space to a trap when the minimum to beat it is still the number of saws it takes to follow the circuits?
The minimum price to break an area controlled by a combo lock trap will always be the amount of wooden wiring it takes to get to whatever it controls (+ 1 ladder if it controls a powered trapdoor)

I'm not saying what you created is useful, although having it all hinge on the combo lock is where I'm disagreeing. If I were to make magic dance and combo together, i'd make it so sawing through the combo lock causes you to not see the pet that controls the next trap.

Hopefully uncastlebar gets my point of thinking in terms of a tooled solution, instead of basing percentages and survivability with the assumption that a robber isn't going to use tools or revisit. smile


Current Life: Mark John Perez
Prev Life: Ronald Michael Jensen
Burglary: Home Invasion 101
Building: House Design 101

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#68 2014-04-16 22:20:41

TheNinja
Member
Registered: 2014-03-10
Posts: 25

Re: This game is unplayable because of cheater!

I am sorry but how did i survive 3 months..? I have been creating a new home after a suicide in my 30k house so that the game requires a lil'thinking.


If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut.
-Jeffrey R. Murphy
Find me on steam NinjaStylle

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