[Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

FreeLove · 2014-02-24 18:00:15

Hello! Fun and addicting game.

... that would be even MORE addicting if I didn't lose everything testing out some new weird house plan. YES, I should've written it out in careful detail on a piece of paper using a T-square and calculator during class instead of paying attention to the five important bumper crops in America around the late 1840's because it will be on some dumb multiple choice test and will have no practical bearing on the rest of my life...

but really, I just want to have fun and play the game, and toss around some ideas in my house without one misstep erasing hours and hours of work. the penalty is too harsh, and it makes it less fun.

can I get an amen?

Last edited by FreeLove (2014-02-24 18:00:54)

Mortalfiend · 2014-02-24 18:07:29

Well as much as I hate to say this to you, because I can't swallow my own medicine, that's what indicator lights are for.

Americans17 · 2014-02-24 18:14:13

Just try first with chihuahas and indicator lights . A big point of this game is that you can die in your own house and they will not remove it

Kimenzar · 2014-02-24 18:20:32

Like Mortalfriend said use lights, red for electric floor, green for pits and doors(But know what green light is what), pitbulls for these little things(I don't want to call them dogs ). And most important, if you use chiwawas for a test run in there normally the pitbull would die, run the test more than one and delete the chiwawa and do the next test. Don't go to the vault, go everytime back so you have no costs if you replace your light and chiwawas again. After you tested all your traps and you are sure all works properly, change all to your traps, press + and done and do your go. If it fails you can check your housescreenshot now to find the mistake.

Common mistakes in rebuilding the house after familykills or vaultrobbing are, misplaced Pitbulls and dead Animals( DEAD ANIMALS THOSE %()$§/&= ).

Hope my tips help =P

FreeLove · 2014-02-24 18:30:35

I thought indicator lights were for causing seizures.

But seriously, how does that explain anything? Even with rigorous indicator/chihuahua testing, you can still make a misstep during the 'live-fire' phase, and the penalty still doesn't make sense. The fun part of this game is designing traps & discovering others' designs. 'Proving you can get to the safe' isn't a fun mini-game, it's the function that makes the rest of the game fun.

edit: Yes, I know, you can lead the chihuahuas out of your house so you don't have to pay for them. But if you can cheat the price that easily, then why is it an extra step? Why not just let the player set the deathtraps and respawn with impunity? (only in the self-test, of course) It just seems tedious, less fun, and kind of unnecessary.

Last edited by FreeLove (2014-02-24 18:39:58)

SomeGuyNamedDavid · 2014-02-24 18:40:49

Well, misstep prevention is what the enter-confirm system is for. Or if even with enter-confirm you still mess up, your tool-less sequence might just be too complicated and needs simplifying. Also, you don't have to pay for any changes if you don't touch the safe at the end.

Last edited by SomeGuyNamedDavid (2014-02-24 18:41:31)

Hippasus · 2014-02-24 18:43:19

The penalty still doesn't make sense

If you lived after electrocuting yourself in your own death-trap THAT wouldn't make sense.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-24 19:32:41

If you are building a treehouse in your backyard and you fell from the tree and died, would you just be like "Well shit. I guess I'll just come back to life and try again", or would you be like ".." oh wait you're dead.

FreeLove · 2014-02-24 19:37:06

SomeGuyNamedDavid wrote:

Well, misstep prevention is what the enter-confirm system is for. Or if even with enter-confirm you still mess up, your tool-less sequence might just be too complicated and needs simplifying.

I don't understand this, can you clarify?

Are you saying (1)the point of the test-run (with or without death traps) is to keep yourself from making mistakes in your own house?
Or are you saying (2)the point of a chihuahua run is to prevent missteps?

I disagree with the first; the test-run is to ensure your house complies with the game requirement: being able to reach your vault with no tools. The point is NOT for it to be any kind of challenge where you have to prove with your own skill that you can reach your vault. It's a feasibility test, nothing more.

As for the second, yes, I know, and I think it's redundant.

Or were you saying something else?

Also, come on, really? Nobody agrees with me? I'm not knocking this game at all, I think it's great. I just think it would be more fun (and not in a way that changes or harms the essence of the game) if the player didn't die on his own self test.

Really? None of you have died on a self-test and been at least a little disappointed? Is that fun?

Edit: Okay, to respond to the comparisons with real life:

No shit. You would actually die in a deathtrap in real life, in your own home.

But in real life, pit bulls are really sweet, you can climb in and out of pits without dying, nobody has controlled explosives (nor robs houses with them), nobody puts high-voltage wiring on the FLOOR in a house with children (wtf?!?!), and on and on and etc. etc.

Like, seriously?! This is a game. A fun game. A game about creating devious puzzles of devilish ingenuity, and admiring & exploring the genius of others (really amazing, by the way!). Not about pretending I'm some pixelated dude with a blank square face trying to steal cash from other people's homes and murder all their pets & kin... though maybe that's what this game is for some of you. Ugh.

Last edited by FreeLove (2014-02-24 19:45:28)

Leaf · 2014-02-24 19:46:10

I do think that perhaps until you get $4000... there should be no self-test permadeath

It's too expensive to use indicator lights and baby dogs.

Blip · 2014-02-24 20:26:34

I'd like to reiterate something Jason said a long time ago: Your traps will perma-death others who are robbing you. Why, then, do you somehow get a "by" on dying in your own house? It isn't fair to the robbers that you get to try your live, deadly traps many times but they only get one. It also serves as a way to prevent people from making ridiculously difficult and tedious houses. If you had a clock-magic dance combo that requires, say 250 steps, all in the right order, you would be very likely to kill yourself testing it; therefore, you would build something different instead.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-24 20:26:37

FreeLove wrote:

I don't understand this, can you clarify?

The enter confirmation he is talking about is NOT just the house test. There is a little button you can press while robbing or testing that makes you confirm each arrow key press with ENTER in order to not make mistakes. It's pretty useful if you might mess up.

iceman · 2014-02-24 21:33:00

Also, I just would like to point out that the self-test permadeath has given me one of my favorite, most intense memories from a game. I did a write up in this post if you're interested, but it was a moment that would never have had the same impact if you didn't die in self tests.

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-24 22:44:06

This suggestion has come up so many times now that I feel negligent for not including it in the FAQ. I'll add something now, it would be helpful if people could remember or find a good quote from Jason on it.

I think the main point is that the game is supposed to be punishing. The feeling of suspense during self tests and the experience of dying to your own traps are really important aspects of what Jason wants you to feel with this game.

redxaxder · 2014-02-24 22:45:27

If you're at serious risk of dying in the house you designed, perhaps you should build a less dangerous house? I mean, you and your family have to live in it after all. A "self defense" system that kills the owner more than it protects him seems to defeat the purpose.

42dustman · 2014-02-24 22:58:32

Do it like me: I test it with lights and chihuahuas a dozen times and go through every route to make sure even the dead ends are working properly. Until I'm ready to do it blindfolded, I don't do it at all.

JoyOfTrapping · 2014-02-24 23:07:39

be cool, stay in school

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-25 01:41:59

ok I've added this to the FAQ - please feel free to suggest improvements:

Q. Jason, can you please remove permadeath from failed self tests? This would make the game so much better!

A. Jason has made it very clear a number of times that death during self tests is an important part of the game and will not be removed. The game is mean to be punishing - (see: "Why is the game so punishing?" below) - and the feeling of suspense during self tests and the crushing feeling of falling to your own traps are important parts of the experience of the game. Also, as you'll be subjecting many others to your deadly traps, it is only fair that falling to them yourself will have the same consequence.

jasonrohrer wrote:

it's a game about being CAREFUL around dangerous things (in part).

To prevent yourself from dying in your own houses there are a number of measures you can take:

- test your house replacing electric floors with red indicator lights, trapdoors and electric doors with green lights and pitbulls with chihuahuas. This way you can know if your traps are working as intended without risking your life. Make sure to exit out the front door rather than reaching the vault. Be aware that pet behaviour may be different as real traps may effect pets differently than lights.
- create back doors that let you escape if things go wrong and close them up before the final test. This lets you test out electric doors safely without having to replace them with lights allowing pet movement to be more accurate.
- don't make your house overly dangerous/difficult to self test. If you make a house that requires 20 unique magic dances don't be surprised if you get one wrong in and end up dead. Make sure you are very confident in the correct way to solve a house before you test with real traps.

Kimenzar · 2014-02-25 04:37:58

Leaf wrote:

I do think that perhaps until you get $4000... there should be no self-test permadeath
It's too expensive to use indicator lights and baby dogs.

If you replace them get near the vault and back out again you can replace them without loosing money <- should be also in the FAQ why to reach the entrance rather than the vault in traptests

Last edited by Kimenzar (2014-02-25 04:41:04)

JoyOfTrapping · 2014-02-25 18:24:17

Good addition, Josh. Well put.

Early on in my TCD education I'd sometimes think to myself, "Oh, I don't need to heed that chihuahuas for pitbulls, indicator lights for electric floors nonsense. I'm a meticulous guy by nature." Well, that worked for a while, until I had a midrange house and fell to my own hubris. To this day, I stick the pitbulls inside the walls during experimentation and swap everything out for lights during a test of something new. And cutting those "backdoor" corridors through your walls can be invaluable while testing as well.

And, to this day, Safe Movement Confirmation is my constant companion. Take the game's theme as seriously as you're told to in the trailer and the online interviews, and you'll eventually find yourself with little to bitch about.

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-25 18:50:37

Kimenzar wrote:

Leaf wrote:
I do think that perhaps until you get $4000... there should be no self-test permadeath
It's too expensive to use indicator lights and baby dogs.
If you replace them get near the vault and back out again you can replace them without loosing money <- should be also in the FAQ why to reach the entrance rather than the vault in traptests

Ok, I've split the first point into two so now it is:

- test your house replacing electric floors with red indicator lights, trapdoors and electric doors with green lights and pitbulls with chihuahuas. This way you can know if your traps are working as intended without risking your life. Be aware that pet behaviour may be different as real traps may effect pets differently than lights.
- make sure to exit out the front door rather than reaching the vault when testing your house. Changes are only saved and paid for after you reach the vault in a self test. If you leave by the front door you will return to build mode and things will be just as they were before you started the self-test.

FreeLove · 2014-02-26 02:16:58

Okay, well I honestly thought more people would be behind this. Thanks for the FAQ answer, that's a great idea. If I could suggest one slight copyedit: 'meant to be punishing' not 'mean to be punishing'.

iceman, I've already read many of your posts, I'm aware you are a mad genius (at least when it comes to wiring), and I'll admit I didn't expect to read a story of someone so thoroughly enjoying the thrill of discovery on a self test. Then again, I think you might be a bit of a masochist (as probably are most of TCD players). I don't get the same feeling, at all, from self-tests as I do robberies... but who knows, maybe if I keep playing long enough I'll enjoy one.

I still disagree with:

Also, as you'll be subjecting many others to your deadly traps, it is only fair that falling to them yourself will have the same consequence.

I'm not sure where this idea of 'fairness' comes from, because it's already a completely different situation going into a maze blind, and going into one that you drew entirely yourself. I maintain that the 'meat' of the game is basically codemaking vs. codebreaking, and one debug error should NOT, in my opinion, cause your entire code to be erased (that's not realistic, that's dumb). On the OTHER hand, make a mistake while codebreaking, and I 100% agree with a harsh penalty.

Reading Jason's comments, the argument against nerfing seems to be "I made this game to be unique, not to be fun." Well, I hate to say this, but it is fun, and "hard" games with masochistic hoops you have to jump through are nothing new. Just look at any old arcade game ever. Many of them are obnoxiously, unnecessarily, even sometimes arbitrarily unforgiving. And people still tried them, despite the defects. That doesn't mean those games couldn't have been made better (like, why the F did Marble Madness have a timer?).

Anyway, it's not that big of a deal, and I'm gonna just go back to playing the game. Thanks for the replies!

Last edited by FreeLove (2014-02-26 02:18:47)

joshwithguitar · 2014-02-26 04:52:38

FreeLove wrote:

If I could suggest one slight copyedit: 'meant to be punishing' not 'mean to be punishing'.

Fixed! Thanks for noticing.

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2014-02-24 18:00:15

[Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#2 2014-02-24 18:07:29

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#3 2014-02-24 18:14:13

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#4 2014-02-24 18:20:32

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#5 2014-02-24 18:30:35

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#6 2014-02-24 18:40:49

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#7 2014-02-24 18:43:19

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#8 2014-02-24 19:32:41

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#9 2014-02-24 19:37:06

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#10 2014-02-24 19:46:10

Re: [Suggestion]: Save Us From Ourselves: No Test-Run Permadeath!

#11 2014-02-24 20:26:34

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#12 2014-02-24 20:26:37

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#13 2014-02-24 21:33:00

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#14 2014-02-24 22:44:06

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#15 2014-02-24 22:45:27

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#16 2014-02-24 22:58:32

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#17 2014-02-24 23:07:39

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#18 2014-02-25 01:41:59

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#19 2014-02-25 04:37:58

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#20 2014-02-25 18:24:17

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#21 2014-02-25 18:50:37

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#22 2014-02-26 02:16:58

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#23 2014-02-26 04:52:38

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