Robbers cracking combo locks

andymac · 2014-04-02 12:05:54

I have a design for a new house which costs around $1700 and includes some (relatively) devious traps at the start which tend to scare off 80% of robbers (shame), and kill 19% of them. I have a final one-way door and a combo lock for the safe, starting at 3 numbers and then upping to 5 or more as I "earn" money.

My question is that, recently, 4 times out of 6 that robbers have got as far as the combo, they've gone straight to the correct combination without any pause to check whether the safe is open (different screen). I appreciate that there are only 8 possibilities (7 really as the starting combo is clearly not the right one) for a 3-button lock, but it seems suspicious. One of those successes was on a 5-button lock, too (so 31 possible solutions).

I have checked tapes and can't see anyone scouting who has somehow broken around the back and "read" the correct solution. Any thoughts as to how this might be happening, or is it just my paranoia and there are a lot of lucky robbers out there...?

Immhotep · 2014-04-02 12:12:53

andymac wrote:

I have a design for a new house which costs around $1700 and includes some (relatively) devious traps at the start which tend to scare off 80% of robbers (shame), and kill 19% of them. I have a final one-way door and a combo lock for the safe, starting at 3 numbers and then upping to 5 or more as I "earn" money.
My question is that, recently, 4 times out of 6 that robbers have got as far as the combo, they've gone straight to the correct combination without any pause to check whether the safe is open (different screen). I appreciate that there are only 8 possibilities (7 really as the starting combo is clearly not the right one) for a 3-button lock, but it seems suspicious. One of those successes was on a 5-button lock, too (so 31 possible solutions).
I have checked tapes and can't see anyone scouting who has somehow broken around the back and "read" the correct solution. Any thoughts as to how this might be happening, or is it just my paranoia and there are a lot of lucky robbers out there...?

Seems to me that it might be one lucky robber and then...
(A) He re-rob you with his 2nd, 3rd & forth account
(B) He showed your house on a live stream or Youtube
(C) He told his friends about your house

xandalis · 2014-04-02 12:30:04

It could also be DaVinci243, with hacks.

Edit: Also, I'd recommend a final commit/execute gate before your safe, to prevent anyone from being able to see if they hit he right combo 'till they move to the safe. Could be as simple as having a powered door's trigger button also trigger one final voltage gate (which if the combo was entered correctly, sends/cuts power to the final barriers as appropriate), or something more devious like a standard floor/pit LoF trap. If they bypass it (leaving it off), voila: they've just cut themselves off from the safe unless they have the tools needed to force the rest of the way. If they're already trapped behind a few stealth gates... sucks to be them.

Last edited by xandalis (2014-04-02 12:34:38)

Darkshadow · 2014-04-02 12:44:09

I had some similar events, with the added item drop and the first robber not actually stealing anything making it a clearly a multi-account case.

Question is the whole map downloaded, hence a wiz with the open source code could work out how to read a whole map without fog, or is the segments downloaded from the server as the player moves? (Rohrer has done a good job of making me paranoid)

andymac, I'd work on developing a order sensitive lock I managed to sort out a design in half an hour on a sheet of paper and as electronics (other than power) are so cheap it didn't cost much more than an order insensitive lock. The main addition is a "breaker" segment that will force door & electric floor power on permanently, each button is connected to that breaker triggering the breaker unless its own connection is broken first by the previous digit.

Other clever tricks is make the power supplying your buttons appear as another button to give an extra free digit, I did the same with the breaker line so there is one button you must always touch (power) and one you must always avoid (breaker) giving two extra digits.

Darkshadow · 2014-04-02 12:47:53

xandalis wrote:

It could also be DaVinci243, with hacks.
Edit: Also, I'd recommend a final commit/execute gate before your safe, to prevent anyone from being able to see if they hit he right combo 'till they move to the safe. Could be as simple as having a powered door's trigger button also trigger one final voltage gate (which if the combo was entered correctly, sends/cuts power to the final barriers as appropriate), or something more devious like a standard floor/pit LoF trap. If they bypass it (leaving it off), voila: they've just cut themselves off from the safe unless they have the tools needed to force the rest of the way. If they're already trapped behind a few stealth gates... sucks to be them.

That is an evil idea a combo lock that looks like you always/easily solve, except the door opens to trick you in, I like it!

andymac · 2014-04-02 13:36:46

All good suggestions, thanks.

Immhotep: I changed the combination (or even rebuilt from scratch after a pauper's suicide...) after each one.
Darkshadow: EDIT: Misunderstood your comment, so ignore me! [[It's built from scratch, not downloaded (I'm sadly proud of parts of it...)]]

That's what made me extra suspicious. Hacks seem likely (and a shame!), but will see if I can catch a few more with either (a) simple commit door after you think you've solved it, or (b) what looks like the correct combination (door opens) but turns out not to be once it's too late, or (c) an order-sensitive combo lock.

Can I do much for <$2000, is the question?

Last edited by andymac (2014-04-02 13:39:17)

Blip · 2014-04-02 13:51:39

Darkshadow wrote:

Question is the whole map downloaded, hence a wiz with the open source code could work out how to read a whole map without fog, or is the segments downloaded from the server as the player moves? (Rohrer has done a good job of making me paranoid)

How it works is the client downloads a full map of the house to be robbed, and returns a final map, a list of moves, and an outcome (died, succeeded, killed family). The list of moves is then validated by a headless client running server side to make sure it gives the same results and final map. With that validated, the robbery has officially took place on the server.

However, it's key to note that the way that move-list is generated is not checkable by the server. For example, an undo button could be added, or full map view could be implemented.

xandalis · 2014-04-02 17:41:56

andymac wrote:

Can I do much for <$2000, is the question?

If you start off with a 3-bit lock, maaaaybe. Depends on what it'll be turning on/off when you enter the correct combo, etc. But then you're stuck with the problem of lacking a commit-gate before the combo site, otherwise it's that much cheaper/easier for someone to try cracking the combo by trial&error. Which then of course makes brute-forcing your safe a more likely occurrence. And after stretching your starting 2k out for all the working parts, you'll likely be stuck with wood walls for a while.

GotABigTrap · 2014-04-02 18:46:10

http://castledraft.com/editor/B3asPu

this isn't scary at all but they wont' know if they got it right until they commit and to go bak they must break it. Tons of combinations and less than 2k

xandalis · 2014-04-02 19:39:37

GotABigTrap wrote:

http://castledraft.com/editor/B3asPu
this isn't scary at all but they wont' know if they got it right until they commit and to go bak they must break it. Tons of combinations and less than 2k

Unfortunately that's paper-thin. Also not really sure what's with that hanging power supply and inverted switch leading off to nothing.

Mind you, I'm talking about deterring 2k tool loads while also only having 2k to work with. Of course I've had some of my earlier designs brute-forced in ways I wouldn't have ever tried myself, so I've been adapting my builds to compensate for what the popular tool choices seem to be.

GotABigTrap · 2014-04-02 19:55:19

xandalis wrote:

GotABigTrap wrote:
http://castledraft.com/editor/B3asPu
this isn't scary at all but they wont' know if they got it right until they commit and to go bak they must break it. Tons of combinations and less than 2k
Unfortunately that's paper-thin. Also not really sure what's with that hanging power supply and inverted switch leading off to nothing.
Mind you, I'm talking about deterring 2k tool loads while also only having 2k to work with. Of course I've had some of my earlier designs brute-forced in ways I wouldn't have ever tried myself, so I've been adapting my builds to compensate for what the popular tool choices seem to be.

well to fix it a little. But I would like to point out that there is some innovation here. This lock benefits by pairing the buttons but then separating the pairs by a wooden wired wall. Variations of this can increase the number of bits and the number of saws required to see the entire combination. Optimally, you could make the number of wooden planks as deep as the number of pairs. 2k of saws won't get you more than half the combination.

Add a commit to the start and it will work much better. Honestly though 3 buttons is very easy to guess because your chance is like 1/6.

http://castledraft.com/editor/Ph2UAi

Last edited by GotABigTrap (2014-04-02 19:59:39)

xandalis · 2014-04-02 20:33:49

And three saws still gets you past the door, ignoring the combo.

http://castledraft.com/editor/VHeVYj

Last edited by xandalis (2014-04-02 20:35:16)

GotABigTrap · 2014-04-02 21:22:50

xandalis wrote:

And three saws still gets you past the door, ignoring the combo.
http://castledraft.com/editor/VHeVYj

I just wanted to show a combo lock that separated pairs of buttons. that is a pretty easy problem to fix

http://castledraft.com/editor/pVi8hY

Last edited by GotABigTrap (2014-04-02 21:27:11)

andymac · 2014-04-03 07:28:34

I seem to have started a conversation. As an update, I build (for $1,960...) my usual dog/family traps, commit gate (to the lock/safe area), commit gate (to the safe/final door area), and 3-bit lock. That was enough to coax two intrepid robbers, both of whom clicked one of the bits, entered the commit gate and committed suicide on seeing a door in front still closed. I have upgraded to a 5-bit lock for part of my "winnings" and we'll see what $80 can pull in...

poor · 2014-04-03 08:52:09

Um, GotABigTrap, there's still a problem with your combo lock. It's not actually solvable with that electric floor there.

eppfel · 2014-04-03 11:26:56

andymac, if your scary house was the long hallway of electric floors and doors. I solved at first try on a suicide run. It was solvable, because it had the same pattern at every trap.

DaVinci243 · 2014-04-03 12:46:15

xandalis wrote:

It could also be DaVinci243, with hacks.

~~~~~ Yup. I be hakin' CD all day mate. ~~~~~~

But seriously, deal with the facts. I wasn't the one who had a god-mode on main-server recording to post it on youtube.

We are anonymous.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.

andymac · 2014-04-03 13:39:12

eppfel - that's not me. I have a dog behind a door (he closes door when he moves forward) directly in front of the house door, and short hallways up and down with various other halls off them. It's easy to brute-force with a few tools, but I don't have much cash :-)

iceman · 2014-04-03 14:37:42

DaVinci's sig now:

DaVinci243 wrote:

Noob programmer hacking an open-source game

Why, I do believe you're starting to get a bit cheeky! XD

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2014-04-02 12:05:54

Robbers cracking combo locks

#2 2014-04-02 12:12:53

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#3 2014-04-02 12:30:04

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#4 2014-04-02 12:44:09

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#5 2014-04-02 12:47:53

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#6 2014-04-02 13:36:46

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#7 2014-04-02 13:51:39

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#8 2014-04-02 17:41:56

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#9 2014-04-02 18:46:10

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#10 2014-04-02 19:39:37

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#11 2014-04-02 19:55:19

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#12 2014-04-02 20:33:49

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#13 2014-04-02 21:22:50

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#14 2014-04-03 07:28:34

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#15 2014-04-03 08:52:09

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#16 2014-04-03 11:26:56

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#17 2014-04-03 12:46:15

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#18 2014-04-03 13:39:12

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

#19 2014-04-03 14:37:42

Re: Robbers cracking combo locks

Board footer