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#1 2014-04-05 21:49:16

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Dual accounts need to be stopped.  They are stifling the game.

Please read to the end before posting your reply: A lot is covered in this post.

I hate to write this post as I love this game and the forum as well.  The members of the forum are always helpful and, aside from the odd Russian invasion, the conduct on the forum is excellent!
I, personally, have only been affected once by dual account cheaters, and that was a few weeks ago.  However, I feel strongly enough that the problem of dual accounts and how they are discussed on this forum has to be addressed.

As one of the majority of players with only one account, my enjoyment of this game was diminished by a dual account user CHEATING their way to my vault.  I am still playing as I believe I am good enough to prevail despite the cheaters.  From the low number of houses available now, compared to steam launch, many other players have quit.  This trend will continue and the user-base will fail to grow as long as cheating with two accounts remains a viable option.

Furthermore, the rot of cheating has spread over to this forum.

Crazyace
LordofHam
Storm
JoyofTrapping
Epfel
TheRealCheese
Blip
Xandalis
Gyuri
Colorfusion
MMaster
Iceman

The listed forum members, including many respected and popular posters, are all advocates of dual accounts.  All of them have refuted claims that dual accounts are any advantage over single accounts.  Every time a player complains about dual accounts, these forum members reply in kind belittling the problem as nothing.  I suspect that every one of them has two accounts.

Now let's look at this further:

Cheating:
Some forum users have claimed that using a second account for gain in ways that a single account couldn't be used is not cheating unless Jason says it is.  Clearly this is a childish suggestion. We each have a sense of morality and know that every time we use our second account to refinance our main, we are cheating.  We justify it as just saving a little time as we could have waited for a fresh 2k 0:0 house to show up and get back in the game anyway.  While that is true, it's still cheating. You are removing the time constraint from that part of the game for your advantage.

Dual account users:
The forum members above may have dual accounts, but that doesn't in itself make them cheaters. It is, of course, how the second account is used that determines whether a player is cheating or not. If the dual account user has never used that second account to deposit 2k of tools into their main then they haven't cheated.  Anything else and they have.  While a minor way, it still affects the balance of the game and gives that player an unfair advantage.  However, this way of cheating doesn't affect other players directly: It only aids the cheater themselves.

Bad Dual account users:
The biggest problem is dual account users who cheat in ways that directly affect other players.  I'm specifically talking about players who use their alt account to explore with 2k of tools on any house without consequence.  Then, if they find the vault, commit suicide in that house before returning with their main account to sweep the vault.  It is this that is killing the game.

Excuses:
The forum members above have excused this heinous crime as 'perhaps coincidence'.  If this were true, then Castle Doctrine must be the most serendipitous game in history.
The form members excuse the crime as 'perhaps two brothers'.  More possible, yet still cheating (using two accounts for gain one account couldn't) and also very unlikely.  Unless those brothers were specifically working together (when, from the experience of having three brothers myself, they would more likely be competing to make the best house), the precision and speed with which these robberies are committed suggest that it is a single player doing the crime.
The forum members also say it is our fault that we were robbed like that!  Our house was too easy to rob.  Insulting!  Just because the forum members have been playing the game for longer, that doesn't mean they know more than every other player out there.  I wonder how far up the rankings these forum members would get without two accounts.

"You should make your house 2k safe," they say.  Once you have a house that can't easily be robbed, it is easy to make these claims.  However, as it costs 2k minimum to decent house, you need to either rob others or wait before you can afford such a house.

The reality is that there is no such thing as a 2k safe house: Every unbroken house can be solved for nothing.  The likelihood of that happening is what is important. I created a cheap house that, by luck alone, only one in 1024 people would get through.  With some luck, one 2k robber got close enough to see the vault.  The next robber in brought exactly 2 water and 2 wire cutters into a house he had never set foot in before and correctly risked his account and completed a magic dance to reach the vault.  All to successfully rob 4k.  The robber himself had a 35k house.

Jason:
What is actually making things worse is that Jason has not frowned upon dual account users.  Perhaps this is a throw back to when the community for the game was smaller.  What this is doing is stagnating the game.  While the chills have made some difference, dual accounts still cause major problems.  Until this is acknowledged as a problem, the userbase will continue to shrink.

The player base:
There are the old players, the forum kings who have two accounts and can do anything they want.  There are the new steam users who threw their money at the game to become the best. Then there are the honest players who play the game as was originally intended with just one account.  Finally there are the newest players, those just starting out for whom the learning curve will be the steepest.  As time goes on, the new players will dry up, the single account players will quit, and the new dual account players will merge with the older players into one group.  The game will revert to pre-steam days and never grow.

Solutions:
*First, the problem of dual accounts MUST be seen as a problem that needs solving by Jason.  Until he acknowledges it and asks for help, things will not get better.

*Second, dual accounts should NOT be banned.  I am NOT calling for a ban on dual account ownership.  Dual accounts IS a way to support Jason and can allow you to both build a house and go robbing without consequences.

*Third many forum users have already written many solutions to the problem of dual accounts.  Just search 'dual accounts' for a list of forum threads where the issue is discussed.  The simplest solution is to have one account per IP address, but this causes obvious problems where two brothers genuinely both have an account.  The best solution would be a complaint system and monitoring system.  If a player suspects multi-account cheating, they report the two player names.  Jason (or staff) check the player names and if they share an IP address, they are punished (banned / suspended... another discussion).  Obviously this also has problems as it would mean Jason would need to spend money or time monitoring this.

Finally:
I return to the forum members listed in this thread. While what I have written is harsh on you, and some of you will feel victimised (perhaps because you have just one account or you haven't abused your second account) and to those of you I am sorry.  However, I would like you all to think about the possible ways you could exploit your second account.  YOU need to acknowledge that they can be used to exploit the game.  Perhaps then, something will actually be done that could save this game.

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#2 2014-04-05 22:24:13

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

The listed forum members, including many respected and popular posters, are all advocates of dual accounts.  All of them have refuted claims that dual accounts are any advantage over single accounts.  Every time a player complains about dual accounts, these forum members reply in kind belittling the problem as nothing.  I suspect that every one of them has two accounts.

I'd just like to point out that most of us don't advocate for it, just say that it isn't as big of an advantage as people make it out to be. No one said there is ZERO advantage, and we don't say the problem is nothing, we just don't agree with the magnitude. On another interesting note, i think if some people DIDN'T use dual accounts, the game would have stagnated a long time ago because none of the top players would ever leave their house, and nothing would ever happen.


It's a trap!

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#3 2014-04-05 22:36:43

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

And that is the problem, LordOfHam.  It is a bigger issue than the forum users listed are making out.

While it may be true that dual account users kept the game going in the early days, now they are killing the game.

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#4 2014-04-05 22:41:02

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

I feel victimized, as I don't have 2 accounts and (I believe) haven't advocated them wink I do generally caution not going crazy calling out people for using dual account, since it can easily fall to the same "This cheater solved my 1 in 10 house!" mentality/fallacy (and come to think of it, I might have made the argument about a possible dual account abuse not being that bad, since the robber was able to reach the safe anyways).  I'd actually really prefer it if people didn't use dual accounts, though.  I've been mostly holding back until Jason said something, since his stance is really the only one that matters.

There's been plenty of discussion on the problems of dual accounts, most of it put forward much better than I could.  Obviously, you can agree or disagree with whether using ual accounts is "cheating" or unfair.  However, I think the biggest reason why people shouldn't use dual accounts, and something that nobody should disagree with, is that people using dual accounts is driving players away.  When people think they face a significant disadvantage to people who pay more (whether or not the disadvantage is large or doesn't exist), most of them will just stop playing.  Let's face it- this is a dying game.  It might last a while, but the amount of people playing is going to continually decrease, especially since there are never going to be sales to attract a lot of new people.  We should be doing everything possible to not discourage people from leaving.  I'm not saying all the top houses should make non-lethal puzzles for new players to solve, but you should think about what gaining a slight advantage/convenience through abusing (i.e. interaction between) dual accounts could be doing to the overall health of the game.


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#5 2014-04-05 22:41:35

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

This This This.  This game is rapidly declining and will be dead in 6 months IMHO if Jason doesn't fix it.  I'm starting to wonder is the right move to run my own server to cater to people that want cheaters banned.  Again, it won't be as popular as the main server, and why am I trying to fix someone else's product, I've got enough of my own software problems to worry about. I bought this game on Jason's promise that the game would be more valuable to people in the long run rather than less, thus no sales.  That certainly has not been my experience.

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#6 2014-04-05 22:45:53

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

i think jason should just do some sales… no one would feel betrayed that they had to spend more money on the game instead of buying it on sale. also he'd get more real money because people would buy it.


It's a trap!

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#7 2014-04-05 22:47:36

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Lord0fHam wrote:

On another interesting note, i think if some people DIDN'T use dual accounts, the game would have stagnated a long time ago because none of the top players would ever leave their house, and nothing would ever happen.

I don't know if dual accounts promotes big heists.  In my mind, while it does generate more robberies overall, it actually leads to less players risking their top houses.  Someone who has 2 accounts isn't going to be risking their top house as much - they'll decrease the danger as much as possible (without losing their money in the process) by scouting with the second account.

Lord0fHam wrote:

i think jason should just do some sales… no one would feel betrayed that they had to spend more money on the game instead of buying it on sale. also he'd get more real money because people would buy it.

Unfotunately, this isn't an option.  He's made it a very public stance that TCD won't have sales; he's stated before that he's going to stick through that promise, at least through this game.  I do agree that, overall, the no sales policy was harmful overall to the game, despite the high hopes for it.

Last edited by iceman (2014-04-05 22:51:51)


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#8 2014-04-05 22:53:34

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

So, those of us who don't feel as you do are automatically part of the problem? Just checking here, because that's sure how the OP reads.

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#9 2014-04-05 22:55:25

Lord0fHam
Member
From: California
Registered: 2014-02-11
Posts: 487

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

that makes sense too. i didn't think of it that way.


It's a trap!

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#10 2014-04-05 23:04:58

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

I'll also note that while I've used other examples of hot-boxing, my main stance is simple: TCD is Jason's game, he defines what cheating is for the game. If that earns me a spot on the "rot of cheating" list, whatever. I'll go grab a few accounts when I next have RL money.

Oh, one other thing: recall that Jason intended for players to have what boils down to rage-quit moments over this game (regardless of whether you actually storm away from the computer or suck it up and start another house).

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#11 2014-04-05 23:10:02

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

xandalis wrote:

Oh, one other thing: recall that Jason intended for players to have what boils down to rage-quit moments over this game (regardless of whether you actually storm away from the computer or suck it up and start another house).

I think I would rage quit a lot less if I had a second account I could play around in.  When I die in this game, I truly lose everything in the game.  That was my understanding of his intention, and it seems allowing this dual account business dilutes the very thing that makes this game great.  This is the only game that has made my pulse quicken more than it does at a blackjack table, because I could lose hours or days of work with a misplaced key.  If I have a second account to go out an earn on, that whole part of the game goes out the window.

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#12 2014-04-05 23:16:51

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Geez, if this was real life you would complain anyway, its not, and you still complain. You are bitter about a casino, common, time to grow some chest hair. Try it, not as easy as you think. Or is it? You don't know, you just rag.

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#13 2014-04-05 23:19:24

crazyace
Member
Registered: 2014-03-24
Posts: 172

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

The way you play Blackjack, Toss couple K on the table, roll , win big, lose big. Live Big.

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#14 2014-04-05 23:19:26

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@Iceman, I nearly didn't include you on the list as I didn't find a quote from you directly condoning dual accounts.  However, you did share in the expense of the user CircleofSorrow who quit the game over dual accounts.

@Xandalis, you are here for this line: "it's only cheating if Jason says it is."  It is this attitude that is part of the 'rot' within the game.  Until we can all admit this the problem will never be solved.

For the record, I have only been affected by dual account cheating once and moved on from it.  I'm more concerned with the attitude by forum members towards dual accounts.

Edit:
@Iceman, having re-read your post, I apologise for including you on the initial list.  However, having you say your disliking for dual accounts out in the open is a good thing.  I just wish others would follow suit.

@Crazyace that attitude doesn't help at all. Using 1 account is like gambling.  Using 2 accounts is just cheating.

Last edited by AMWhy (2014-04-05 23:31:50)

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#15 2014-04-05 23:32:44

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@crazyace I don't know why I even bother responding to you, since I think you are not understanding what I am saying ever.  I am saying I enjoy the pulse quickening that both this game and blackjack brings.  I'm not complaining about these aspects I am lauding them.  I am quite certain that I've bet more on a single hand of blackjack than you have in your entire life, thanks for the "man tips" anyway.

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#16 2014-04-05 23:41:05

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

AMWhy wrote:

@Xandalis, you are here for this line: "it's only cheating if Jason says it is."  It is this attitude that is part of the 'rot' within the game.  Until we can all admit this the problem will never be solved.

For the record, I have only been affected by dual account cheating once and moved on from it.  I'm more concerned with the attitude by forum members towards dual accounts.

And back to my original post/question here: So those who don't agree with you ARE part of the problem in your eyes. Noted, guess I'll just happily take my place as part of the rot then.

Edit: Also, you clearly haven't moved on from that experience, going by the length of your OP.

Last edited by xandalis (2014-04-05 23:43:48)

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#17 2014-04-05 23:56:53

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@Xandalis, you are trying to make it a matter of opinion.  It's not.  Dual account cheating is a fact.  The only debate is over the seriousness of it.  All of the people listed claim it's not a big deal.  As players are leaving in droves, clearly it is a big deal.

The people I listed are those I have observed making pro-dual account comments.  Some of them will be legitimate and I apologise to those players.  However, some, like yourself, clearly condone the cheating behaviour, yet try to dilute it by making false remarks such as "It's only cheating if Jason says it is" to feel better about yourself.

This is the problem and YOU are part of the problem as you are helping players decide to quit.  How?  Think about it: A player is convinced (rightly or wrongly) that a dual account user has cheated to reach their safe.  They complain on the forum but are told by you and the others listed that it's not a big deal, dual accounts don't make a difference, and they are just new to the game.  Then, the final insult, you give them tips on how to be 2k safe?  Of course they are going to quit!

What is needed is clear rules on dual accounts.  One method would be extreme: No dual accounts and suspensions for players with them.  I don't condone this.
What would be better is clear dos and don'ts for dual account users.  Those who are proven to break the rules twice (again after a warning) are banned from the game for X days.

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#18 2014-04-06 00:16:00

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Well, when you can dig up something from Jason that defines it as cheating, I'll happily change my view on the matter. But I haven't seen anything, and I have looked (since it does seem to be a recurring topic). In the meantime, since this is obviously such a big deal to you, why don't you email Jason directly and see what he has to say on the matter? Seriously. Then if he hasn't effectively CC'd the board, share his words. As far as facts go, yes it's a fact that there's a debate over this issue.

As far as the whole feeling insulted over getting tips on how to build a tough 2k house: that's about as rational as yelling at someone who just offered some help, for offering the help. Which is to say, it's not.

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#19 2014-04-06 00:33:51

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Here I have dug something up :

Here http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 053#p10053  Jason is talking about dual accounts :

"Yeah, sadly, there is no way to prevent this.  How do you tell the difference between two friends who are helping each other and one person using two accounts?
This is true of ALL online games, of course.  Friends working together can help each other.
I'm not saying that it's an intended part of this game.
There were plenty of things put in place to thwart straight-up resource transfer between two accounts.  So you can't easily feed yourself $2000 over and over from a second account (or two friends can't easily feed each other $2000 repeatedly).  But those fixes make sense in the game and don't have huge negative effects on the non-exploiting players.
Trying to detect IP addresses that "seem" to be collaborating would be like looking for patterns in static."

He says it's not an intended part of the game.  It would seem that he wants to prevent it but trying to solve it with things like IP addresses are too difficult. He talks about other measures he has put in to prevent self automatic wealth generation. What further proof do you need?

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#20 2014-04-06 00:33:55

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@Xandalis, I understand your viewpoint and it's quite natural.  You have two accounts and you see no problem.  Some people, myself included, are questioning the legitimacy of having two accounts and saying that some two account holders are cheating.  As a two account holder, you want to defend your position.

For the most part, I agree.  Having two accounts needn't be a problem.

However:

First, you get a second account and vow not to give money to yourself.
Then you make a mistake and die. You want to rebuild quick.
You give yourself a 2k boost.  Just once is okay, right?
Before you know it, it's a regular thing.

This IS cheating, but it's harmless.  I have no problem here.

However, some players go further.  It is those players who need to be targeted and what we need is players with two accounts to acknowledge this.

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#21 2014-04-06 00:35:50

FreeLove
Member
Registered: 2014-02-24
Posts: 98

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

xandalis wrote:

So, those of us who don't feel as you do are automatically part of the problem? Just checking here, because that's sure how the OP reads.

+1


AMWhy wrote:

The listed forum members, including many respected and popular posters, are all advocates of dual accounts.  All of them have refuted claims that dual accounts are any advantage over single accounts.  Every time a player complains about dual accounts, these forum members reply in kind belittling the problem as nothing.  I suspect that every one of them has two accounts.

Can I be added to the list please? I don't refute at ALL that dual accounts don't have an advantage over single accounts. However, if someone wants to buy two copies of the game to help them rob houses, I'm all for it. Like, what's the big deal? You act like houses aren't meant to be robbed.

For the record, I don't have two accounts. It's easy enough robbing with only one. Two accounts would just speed up the grind, and make me spend more time on the game.

Last edited by FreeLove (2014-04-06 00:36:41)


I only post because I care <3

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#22 2014-04-06 00:42:00

AMWhy
Member
Registered: 2014-02-04
Posts: 432

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

@FreeLove, people are quitting over dual account cheaters.  How is that not a problem?

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#23 2014-04-06 01:21:51

xandalis
Member
Registered: 2014-03-14
Posts: 114

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Finally, some proof. "What more do I need?" That implies you'd previously presented proof that I rejected. Alright, so he does put it in terms of exploiting. Roger that.

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#24 2014-04-06 01:28:32

Nakula
Member
Registered: 2014-03-03
Posts: 66

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

Guys. I hope you all know this thread is useless. Jason doesnt give 2 shits about this game. It's just another project for him, and hes moving onto the next. People have given great suggestions to improve the game and keep gameplay the same. Countless people have reported the dual count exploit, as well as others. He's not gonna do anything. Talk about it all you want, the architect is not going to change his design. Maybe its laziness, maybe it cant be fixed. Who knows. But i do know one thing. Jason aint gonna do shit

Last edited by Nakula (2014-04-06 01:29:07)

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#25 2014-04-06 01:28:56

cullman
Member
Registered: 2014-03-21
Posts: 424

Re: Dual Accounts AND The Forum

xandalis wrote:

Finally, some proof. "What more do I need?" That implies you'd previously presented proof that I rejected. Alright, so he does put it in terms of exploiting. Roger that.

Well, I have mentioned before that clearly Jason has put measures into the game to prevent this, therefore he must not want it.  I guess that's what I meant by further proof, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Anyway, so you are saying you agree it's cheating and you are going to stop supporting it on these boards?  If so, I give you credit for being adult enough to change your opinion in the face of evidence.

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