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#26 2014-01-25 09:56:09

Cabnormal
Member
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 18

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Never mind, found out the issue was something else.

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#27 2014-01-25 17:09:17

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

There shouldn't be any delays in the electronics, unless you build one on purpose, which is pretty complicated, requires the voltage-triggered switches, and is really hard to do by accident.

SnakeAes:  I designed this game so that there are many possible "successful" house designs... some of them don't even use electronics.  In my opinion, the folks that are "mastering electronics" are more doing it for their own amusement than actually given themselves a practical advantage in the game.  Yes, they can quite compactly build something that gives you a 1/1,000,000 chance of solving it by accident, but you can also do that with dogs and doors!

Halfway in between those two extremes are the "simple" uses of electronics.  It's not too hard to do cool things (like have a door open when a wall is cut).

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#28 2014-01-25 23:30:08

SnakeAes
Member
From: SoCal, USA
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 41

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

The thing is I'd like to ideally (someday far in the future perhaps) build a house that requires a PIN to get to the safe. Where I would arrange switches in a 3x3 grid pattern and require a specific pattern of switches be pressed in order for the path to the vault to be completely clear. I'm pretty sure this is possible given the current electronics in the game but I am either not creative enough or not smart enough (or both) to figure it out.


---
勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。
"Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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#29 2014-01-27 10:09:17

Alaorath
Member
Registered: 2014-01-27
Posts: 5

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Okay, based on the number of times I've opened this thread to find the basic logic gates (AND, OR, etc), I've decided to start adding screenshots and content to the Wiki Wiring section.

(Full Disclosure: I bought the game Thursday, so I haven't even been playing a week - I may have screwed up some of the logic... but it's a start).

Jason & vetrans, please take a look and edit it if I've added something that should be tribal knowledge or obfuscated.

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#30 2014-01-27 11:15:29

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

I just added a note about being careful when using multiple logic gates together, since that's ruined some of my (non-serious) designs because of overlooking it.  Don't worry about adding "tribal knowledge" - I'm pretty sure that everybody playing (or at least the veterans =P) wants people to be able to figure out nuances of the game.  I mean, the safe Chihuahua passage trick is in the wiki, and that's the most obscure trick in the game wink


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#31 2014-01-27 12:30:37

Cabnormal
Member
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 18

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Another question, are powered pitfalls conductive? Say one powered pitfall has power flowing to it, and there's another next to it, will both powered pitfalls be activated (and act as normal floors) or just the one?

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#32 2014-01-27 12:33:15

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Just the one - the only conducting trap is power grids


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#33 2014-01-27 12:33:51

ukuko
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 333

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Cabnormal wrote:

Another question, are powered pitfalls conductive? Say one powered pitfall has power flowing to it, and there's another next to it, will both powered pitfalls be activated (and act as normal floors) or just the one?

Nope. A trapdoor acts like a non-conducting indicator tile.

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#34 2014-01-27 12:35:56

SnakeAes
Member
From: SoCal, USA
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 41

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

iceman wrote:

Just the one - the only conducting trap is power grids

Electric floors, you mean?


---
勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。
"Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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#35 2014-01-27 12:39:22

Cabnormal
Member
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 18

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Jason: Turned out to be that I had changed a passage so that a pet near the start of my maze had seen me, where it should not have. There was a power switch that this pet could activate if the player moved passed a certain longitude after it was seen. So when I was just getting to my safe around the corner the electric floors went on. It was rather unexpected.

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#36 2014-01-27 12:39:27

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

SnakeAes wrote:
iceman wrote:

Just the one - the only conducting trap is power grids

Electric floors, you mean?

I tend to shy away from electric floor, because it *could* refer to trapdoors (it's a floor when it's powered)... do you think power grids is harder to understand?


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#37 2014-01-27 12:40:50

Cabnormal
Member
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 18

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Nice, wish I asked that question before I placed three in a row cool

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#38 2014-01-27 12:41:10

SnakeAes
Member
From: SoCal, USA
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 41

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

iceman wrote:
SnakeAes wrote:
iceman wrote:

Just the one - the only conducting trap is power grids

Electric floors, you mean?

I tend to shy away from electric floor, because it *could* refer to trapdoors (it's a floor when it's powered)... do you think power grids is harder to understand?

I see your point, but I think power grids could also potentially be confused for power sources. I don't think many people will confuse electric floor for powered trapdoors though. But that's just me.


---
勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。
"Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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#39 2014-01-27 13:45:16

Alaorath
Member
Registered: 2014-01-27
Posts: 5

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

I just added the "trap" components to the wiring section as well to clarify how power propagates through the various components.  As far as I know, only the Electric Floor/Grate is conductive.

Good to know it's not just us newbies that get tripped up.

I also tweaked the "Steel Wall" description a bit.  Watching earlier "Let's Play" videos I tried using them as wires and couldn't figure out why my circuits didn't work.  Does anyone know the exact version that steel walls where changed to non-conductive?

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#40 2014-01-27 14:02:36

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Alaorath wrote:

I just added the "trap" components to the wiring section as well to clarify how power propagates through the various components.  As far as I know, only the Electric Floor/Grate is conductive.

Good to know it's not just us newbies that get tripped up.

I also tweaked the "Steel Wall" description a bit.  Watching earlier "Let's Play" videos I tried using them as wires and couldn't figure out why my circuits didn't work.  Does anyone know the exact version that steel walls where changed to non-conductive?

V16

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#41 2014-01-27 19:45:00

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

It looks like someone has put a "traps" guide into the advanced electronics page - not exactly what I had in mind when I set it up. I was going to put in an explanation of clocks, counters and some basic trap ideas using advanced electronics, like having a wired floor fire up when you cut it. We should move the contests to a page called "traps guide" - I really should have put a small blurb on that page when I created it.

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#42 2014-01-27 19:48:48

SnakeAes
Member
From: SoCal, USA
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 41

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

This was a post in the Meta-Game and Trap Mechanics thread:

Alaorath wrote:

Great stuff guys!  I've taken the liberty of adding them to the "Advanced" section of the wiki.

Not to throw Alaorath under the bus or anything but I assume he was the one who made the change you're speaking of, Josh.

The fix should be fairly easy though, simply create a new page called traps guide or trap mechanics and cut/paste everything over, no?


---
勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。
"Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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#43 2014-01-28 05:18:07

Poundsmiley
Member
Registered: 2014-01-26
Posts: 3

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

I believe the wiring description for the xor is incorrect on the wiki. Exclusive or is one or the other but not both. Now if I can remember how digital logic math works I can start designing some interesting traps.

Last edited by Poundsmiley (2014-01-28 05:20:59)

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#44 2014-01-28 07:37:12

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
Website

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Fixed the description.  Also noticed that the top pictures in OR and AND were backwards, so I fixed those.


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#45 2014-01-28 08:32:00

Synthesis
Member
Registered: 2014-01-27
Posts: 10

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

There have been a few people asking about how to do a combo/pin lock. Here is a very basic example:

http://castlefortify.com/c/968930e

The pin here is 1, 3, 5. If they are pressed and 2, 4, 6 are not pressed, there is a signal sent that cuts power to the door. 1, 3, 5 can be entered in any order, as long as they are pressed before 2, 4, 6. To brute force this type of lock it will take at most (2^n)-1 attempts. So this example will be solved in 63 attempts or less. You will want to have traps to prevent people from viewing the door  more than once after entering the code or else up to 6 attempts can be made in one house visit (1 | 1,2 | 1,2,3| 1,2,3,4| 1,2,3,4,5| 1,2,3,4,5,6).

You can make locks that need buttons pressed in order, or have the same button pressed multiple times as well. These become much more difficult to brute force, but also require more difficult electronics that take up valuable space.

Last edited by Synthesis (2014-01-28 08:35:43)

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#46 2014-01-28 09:25:03

okami316
Member
Registered: 2014-01-26
Posts: 8

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Synthesis wrote:

There have been a few people asking about how to do a combo/pin lock. Here is a very basic example:

http://castlefortify.com/c/968930e

The pin here is 1, 3, 5. If they are pressed and 2, 4, 6 are not pressed, there is a signal sent that cuts power to the door. 1, 3, 5 can be entered in any order, as long as they are pressed before 2, 4, 6. To brute force this type of lock it will take at most (2^n)-1 attempts. So this example will be solved in 63 attempts or less. You will want to have traps to prevent people from viewing the door  more than once after entering the code or else up to 6 attempts can be made in one house visit (1 | 1,2 | 1,2,3| 1,2,3,4| 1,2,3,4,5| 1,2,3,4,5,6).

You can make locks that need buttons pressed in order, or have the same button pressed multiple times as well. These become much more difficult to brute force, but also require more difficult electronics that take up valuable space.

You need to change the horizontal wiring into a wired wall, or else they can break the wooden wall above and look at the combination.
Just as a variant that prevents brute force, here's a compact version of what I've used before.

lUaOT6S.png

The lock is the same, but they can't simply cut the power for the electric floors or doors due to the powered trap doors also losing power.
electric floors and powered doors are interchangeable, just changes the necessary tools to brute force.
Also, having it against the wall would prevent breaking the wall from the other side for the code.

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#47 2014-01-28 09:31:07

Alaorath
Member
Registered: 2014-01-27
Posts: 5

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Poundsmiley wrote:

I believe the wiring description for the xor is incorrect on the wiki. Exclusive or is one or the other but not both. Now if I can remember how digital logic math works I can start designing some interesting traps.

iceman wrote:

Fixed the description.  Also noticed that the top pictures in OR and AND were backwards, so I fixed those.


Doh!  good catch. I noticed the OR image was wrong just before adding the "safe" version, but must have forgotten to go back and fix the others.

I have no excuse for the XOR goof, other than it's been +15 years since I learned logic gates in school.

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#48 2014-01-28 10:11:56

Synthesis
Member
Registered: 2014-01-27
Posts: 10

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

You need to change the horizontal wiring into a wired wall, or else they can break the wooden wall above and look at the combination.
Just as a variant that prevents brute force, here's a compact version of what I've used before.

http://i.imgur.com/lUaOT6S.png

The lock is the same, but they can't simply cut the power for the electric floors or doors due to the powered trap doors also losing power.
electric floors and powered doors are interchangeable, just changes the necessary tools to brute force.
Also, having it against the wall would prevent breaking the wall from the other side for the code.

It is just a wiring example, in yours they can spend $1600 and know the combo. My house in the competition took something like $15,000 to know the combo. It takes something like $25,000 now. This is of course if you know the optimal path already smile.

With the term brute force I meant trying lots of different keys, not tools. Your house does not improve that. You would want the door out of sight of all buttons and behind commit gates that take over $2,000 in tools to escape.

If you look at my example, they actually cannot cut the wire either. The door is powered from inside, and opened by sending power IN. If they cut the wire, they will not be able to open it with a combo

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#49 2014-01-28 13:10:39

okami316
Member
Registered: 2014-01-26
Posts: 8

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

Synthesis wrote:

It is just a wiring example, in yours they can spend $1600 and know the combo. My house in the competition took something like $15,000 to know the combo. It takes something like $25,000 now. This is of course if you know the optimal path already smile.

With the term brute force I meant trying lots of different keys, not tools. Your house does not improve that. You would want the door out of sight of all buttons and behind commit gates that take over $2,000 in tools to escape.

If you look at my example, they actually cannot cut the wire either. The door is powered from inside, and opened by sending power IN. If they cut the wire, they will not be able to open it with a combo

Huh, I dunno how I didn't notice that power in the back. I should do that for future traps that need to be turned "off". Learning new things from every post.

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#50 2014-01-28 19:51:32

Zalethon
Member
Registered: 2014-01-22
Posts: 23

Re: Electronics Tutorial?

I'm having trouble figuring out clocks and such when loops (understandably) die and everything reverts to 'off'... Anyone have any examples?

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