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#1 2014-02-09 06:43:49

Welkin
Member
Registered: 2014-02-07
Posts: 21

Being able to recover most my money upon death

I was raiding some high level houses and made a simple mistake and ended up dying inside the house. I was going to show my stream how we gave the guy somewhere around 20k in bounty and released 115 paintings into the auction house... but none were there.

That's when I remembered one of my stream viewers hopped into my house to "protect it" as I've had quite a problem with stream snipers.

I then walked him through beating my vault, and since he had no house he had me re-break into his house with a club and take everything back.

I feel that this system could be abused and someone could get around the risk of dying while attacking someone's house. One slip up should cost someone everything they have, like good Mr Price messing up and losing top spot. This would allow anyone to protect all their non-wife money just by having an empty 2nd account log into their house whenever they attack anyone.

Just wanted to put this up for discussion, maybe it's not as much of a potential problem as I see it.

If anyone wants to see the death, here is a highlight video from my death to realization I could get my money back: http://www.twitch.tv/akuwelkin/c/3692335

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#2 2014-02-09 06:55:30

RevealingGekco
Member
Registered: 2014-02-02
Posts: 65

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Wow, so a multi-account player can basically cheat death by letting their alt sit in their house while they rob?

That doesn't seem right...

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#3 2014-02-09 06:58:49

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

This is a really good point, I didn't even think about this being possible. You'd still lose your house, but be able to retain all of your money with pretty much no risk.

Perhaps if you get to the vault of someone who's died, you get a message from the server like "The state have already reclaimed the vault contents" and get no money. It would be a pretty rare circumstance unless you're doing it on purpose.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-09 06:59:17)

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#4 2014-02-09 07:02:49

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Dual accounts give you such a ridiculous advantage in so many ways. You can scout and rob risk free, you can lock others out of your main, apparently you can save all of your main account's money. I don't have a problem with it if the two are treated separately but anything else... ugh.


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#5 2014-02-09 08:29:19

ventuswings
Member
Registered: 2014-01-23
Posts: 55

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

I guess it'll be the same deal as empty vault, except with teleport.

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#6 2014-02-09 09:52:32

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

This would take so much trouble to do by yourself. Every time you went out robbing, you would have to use your alt to enter your house, loiter there until you finish your robbery, then have the alt leave. If you die during the robbery, you have the alt take your money, then rob them (hoping that nobody else does). It really is a crazy exploit, but the fact that nobody has ever pulled it off until now, and nobody has ever done it alone, means that it probably won't have a really big impact anyway.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#7 2014-02-09 09:55:07

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Blip wrote:

This would take so much trouble to do by yourself. Every time you went out robbing, you would have to use your alt to enter your house, loiter there until you finish your robbery, then have the alt leave. If you die during the robbery, you have the alt take your money, then rob them (hoping that nobody else does). It really is a crazy exploit, but the fact that nobody has ever pulled it off until now, and nobody has ever done it alone, means that it probably won't have a really big impact anyway.

You don't need to rob your alt, just start your new life on that account instead and use your previous main account as your new alt account. It'd probably be used on large scale risky robberies, so you don't need to guarantee any exit and can bounce back easily if you die.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-09 09:55:47)

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#8 2014-02-09 11:43:25

arakira
Member
Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

You could also use it to optimize chain robbing. Leave the house with half of the tools while the alt comes in to occupy your empty house. Pick up a house. If your robbery fails but you can safely exit, come back home and pick up the rest of the tools to finish the job (by now you should have a sufficient knowledge about the target house to know which tools to take). Second case, if your robbery fails and you die, let your alt grab the main vault, and use the remaining tools to finish the robbery
You wouldn't even have to waste money to build a house to protect the leftover cash & tools... A chain-robber dream!

Last edited by arakira (2014-02-09 11:46:46)

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#9 2014-02-09 14:08:29

RevealingGekco
Member
Registered: 2014-02-02
Posts: 65

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

jere wrote:

Dual accounts give you such a ridiculous advantage in so many ways. You can scout and rob risk free, you can lock others out of your main, apparently you can save all of your main account's money. I don't have a problem with it if the two are treated separately but anything else... ugh.

So, this is just another (major) advantage available to multi-account users.  Is it really intended for players to be able to purchase such an advantage over people who just buy the game once?

Last edited by RevealingGekco (2014-02-09 14:09:23)

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#10 2014-02-09 14:13:14

colorfusion
Member
Registered: 2013-04-02
Posts: 537

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

RevealingGekco wrote:
jere wrote:

Dual accounts give you such a ridiculous advantage in so many ways. You can scout and rob risk free, you can lock others out of your main, apparently you can save all of your main account's money. I don't have a problem with it if the two are treated separately but anything else... ugh.

So, this is just another (major) advantage available to multi-account users.  Is it really intended for players to be able to purchase such an advantage over people who just buy the game once?

It's not intended, and Jason is doing and has done a lot to try to stop it.

There are certain things however that you can't really stop people having an advantage on by having multiple accounts, unless you somehow track them and make sure there's only ever one account per person. These advantages are present in pretty much every game, and in fact almost everything you can purchase.

If you buy two of something then you can be less careful with one because you have a backup, and you can use one to experiment around.

Last edited by colorfusion (2014-02-09 14:15:58)

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#11 2014-02-09 14:14:07

arakira
Member
Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 176

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

I think all these advantages are part of Jason's devilish plan to have everyone buy the game twice smile

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#12 2014-02-09 17:15:48

Blip
Member
Registered: 2013-05-07
Posts: 505

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

arakira wrote:

I think all these advantages are part of Jason's devilish plan to have everyone buy the game twice smile

Then the guy with three accounts will have the big advantage. Then, once everyone has three, four is an advantage; and so on and so forth indefinitely. Jason is planning for everybody to buy infinite copies of the game! How evil.

But actually, the amount of work going into removing the advantage from alts shows that it's not an intended part of the game. I myself have an alt, which I rarely use expect to do recording (let's plays should start soon, I'm just very busy). It's really just the people who use their alt for nefarious purposes who need to be reined in.


Current life: Not dead, but I have no clue who I am
The Life and Times of Christopher Alvin Harris
Record: 149 Paintings!

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#13 2014-02-10 17:31:34

Quindo
Member
Registered: 2014-02-05
Posts: 6

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

This makes me wonder if money should be a trade able resource...

Could I but a letter for $500 that is a threat on a house?  Then if they pay 1/4th of their current value their house becomes purple to me for a week?

That would take away one of the larger benefits of having alts.

Another item that could be bought would be a 'Whistleblower phone' for something like $10000 that would let you shorten the time someone has to rob a house from the 20 minutes to 5 minutes.

On the other side of things if I form a 'guild' I can see us intentionally letting our guildies rob us when they die to get them started back on their feet without being limited to 2k.

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#14 2014-02-10 18:03:43

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2013-04-01
Posts: 1,231

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Like all true dual account "exploits", this one is limited by the chills and force-ignore system that is in place, so that while you can do this sometimes, you can't do it over and over in a given day, at least not without having an extra account for each time that you want to do it.

So, while you could ROB BACK your belongings from your safety-net friend there, that friend would be unable to perform the same service for you again (because your new-life house is invisible to that friend) until the force-ignore wears off.

And, since these are tweakable parameters, I can make doing this as painful as I want to make it.  Right now, chills are 24 hours, and force-ignores are 24 hours, which are pretty inconvenient to exploit already.  But I could make them 1 year if I wanted.

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#15 2014-02-10 18:10:36

iceman
Member
Registered: 2013-11-09
Posts: 687
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Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Make it 50 years - scouting information from previous lives will become a family thing, passed down from generation to generation.

Seriously, though, wouldn't increasing chills much more actually provide an incentive for dual accounts?  Right now, the info you get from suicide scouting isn't too reliable - From my notes on houses I scouted 2 days ago , almost half of the houses aren't there anymore.  If chills are long enough, the only way to get reliably reliable info is to have a second account scout.


Fortress Theory Mod - New objects, tools, and paintings!

I keep dying of a natural cause - Stupidity
The biggest thing that Castle Doctrine has taught me is that the price of your house is proportional to the stupidity of the mistake that kills you.

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#16 2014-02-10 19:06:23

Americans17
Member
Registered: 2014-02-09
Posts: 80

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

how you have an alt acc? you just buy the game 2 times or what?

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#17 2014-02-10 19:44:35

jere
Member
Registered: 2013-05-31
Posts: 540

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Yup.


Golden Krone Hotel - a vampire roguelike

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#18 2014-02-11 02:47:10

Welkin
Member
Registered: 2014-02-07
Posts: 21

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

jasonrohrer wrote:

Like all true dual account "exploits", this one is limited by the chills and force-ignore system that is in place, so that while you can do this sometimes, you can't do it over and over in a given day, at least not without having an extra account for each time that you want to do it.

Ooo right! Didn't even occur to me. Glad you've thought about it already though!

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#19 2014-02-11 02:54:26

joshwithguitar
Member
Registered: 2013-07-28
Posts: 538

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Hmm, it seems though that if you only die rarely having an extra account in your house as insurance in the case of death could still be pretty effective. And because the force ignore works in only for the life in which you are doing the robbing this won't stop you using your first account to provide safety for your second after it has just saved all of your paintings. So, overall you could protect yourself from 2 deaths over a 24 hour period, which for a careful player would generally be all they need.

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#20 2014-02-11 14:36:39

Welkin
Member
Registered: 2014-02-07
Posts: 21

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

Now that I think about it, when you consider chills they don't matter at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have chills for a house, and they die, you don't have chills for their new life, correct? Also being robbed by someone in a past life doesn't give you chills?

Assuming the person builds up the 2nd account upon the 1st account's death, robbing him of half his cash and all his tools, neither house will have chills for the other. Their only interaction was the 1st account was robbed by the 2nd account, which won't give chills for the 1st account to rob the 2nd account. As long as you don't transfer the money back to the 1st account, you can then protect the 2nd with the 1st until you die. Then the only interaction between the 2nd account and the new 1st was being robbed so no chills.

Correct? This would allow you to safely transfer tools + 1/2 cash (minus cost of building new house) each life. Still painful but not bad.

Last edited by Welkin (2014-02-11 14:38:06)

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#21 2014-02-11 16:37:29

RevealingGekco
Member
Registered: 2014-02-02
Posts: 65

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

I think it's the force ignore they are referring to (lockout after you successfully rob someone's house).

joshwithguitar wrote:

Hmm, it seems though that if you only die rarely having an extra account in your house as insurance in the case of death could still be pretty effective. And because the force ignore works in only for the life in which you are doing the robbing this won't stop you using your first account to provide safety for your second after it has just saved all of your paintings. So, overall you could protect yourself from 2 deaths over a 24 hour period, which for a careful player would generally be all they need.

As Joshwithguitar said, a careful player (who has already generated a sum worth saving) should be able to play it safe for a day or two after they wait for their safety net to recharge.  You'd probably need a bit of time to rebuild your house anyway.

And not to forget the original post, if you have a few buddies who play you can always have one of them sit in your house.

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#22 2014-02-11 17:20:14

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

are we blurring some lines here? what is really different between a single person with two accounts, and two people in cahoots with one each?

limits per IP wont work. it is just incredibly easy to join another wifi network or fire up a proxy and have a different IP, bypassing the whole thing. also this punishes genuine players who live together, or share an IP for whatever reason.

1 year force ignore/chills on houses you rob....... wow, i don't.. i don't think that'd work. i hope i am misunderstanding this one.

Last edited by largestherb (2014-02-11 17:21:15)

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#23 2014-02-12 06:52:18

RevealingGekco
Member
Registered: 2014-02-02
Posts: 65

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

largestherb wrote:

are we blurring some lines here? what is really different between a single person with two accounts, and two people in cahoots with one each?

limits per IP wont work. it is just incredibly easy to join another wifi network or fire up a proxy and have a different IP, bypassing the whole thing. also this punishes genuine players who live together, or share an IP for whatever reason.

Yeah, it's really the same issue however it's done... Maybe just slightly more accessible to the multi-accounters.

For the reported issue in the thread... the most fair thing might be to kick someone out of a house they are robbing when the user dies (with their tools), if they can no longer get the safe contents.

IP limitations seems workable... how about if you just can't see/enter houses on the same IP as you? People with the know how can work around this, but it should stop some of the multi-account abuse without any drastic impact to other users.  Identifying 'real' end users isn't a perfectly solvable problem... if you can come up with a solution, patient it and go sell it to Google, Blizzard or the NSA.

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#24 2014-02-12 09:18:09

ukuko
Member
Registered: 2013-04-06
Posts: 333

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

RevealingGekco wrote:

People with the know how can work around this

Those are likely the people exploiting multiple accounts. That's why IP restrictions aren't worth it.

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#25 2014-02-12 11:01:08

largestherb
Member
From: england
Registered: 2013-05-27
Posts: 381

Re: Being able to recover most my money upon death

i would say it is more accessible to two people working together, personally. too many times when i wanted a free $2k in the past would my second client take too long to load and no money for me sad although whether that was just the server hiccuping for everyone or my multiple requests at once, i dunno.

anyway, in my opinion it is less stressful and requires a lot less speedy mouse movement to just say 'go' to someone over skype or sitting next to you or whatever kids do these days.


kicking people out of houses in which the owner dies (or giving them a minute long siren timer, police coming to inform the next of kin... very urgently) seems like a much better solution route to take than installing a bunch of preventative measures that can be circumvented / interfere with the innocent

Last edited by largestherb (2014-02-12 11:02:27)

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