Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 11:16:59

So I finally got robbed for 28k today. Here is my final house design. I was hoping maybe some people like Jere or Josh could give me some tips for how to make things more secure for next time.

The problem i have is that if you know where to go, it only takes 1 ladder. How can i improve this?

Last edited by Lord0fHam (2014-02-17 11:19:12)

Banakai · 2014-02-17 11:29:28

Don't base it off of aavaks house next time

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 11:32:55

only the very very first part is based off his house. nothing afterwards.

jere · 2014-02-17 11:45:08

Ah, I seem to have a reputation now? jwg is probably the better player honestly, but I'll give it a shot.

The main thing is your house is too tightly connected. Your house is all based on these two combo locks and that necessarily means robbers have a pretty easy time going from combo-lock-entry->safe. Assume that any robber will bring, for all intents and purposes, infinite saws. If they go through the top part, they get through for 15 saws and a ladder. Ouch! Not much better if they go through the bottom. You can try to make some wired wooden wall routes longer (easier opportunity to do so on the right) and it may save you for a while, but ultimately it's a fool's errand. Price hit me with 100 saws and that kind of attack isn't even expensive.

Blip has written a nice post on avoiding tightly coupled design.

If you want to keep your combo locks, you can try to isolate them with pits and cats. That's pretty much the easiest way to isolate a player movement from an electric signal. You'll have to play with the camera movement to see how big of a gap you can make. Of course, any walkway that takes them from the combo lock to the pit needs to be as secure or you have a weak point.

You can try putting commitment traps earlier on. Take the dog leap of faith at the bottom. Great idea, but by that point they can already use saws.

Overall, you have a lot of thin walls. Also try to assume robbers are going to make lucky guesses and dig into your walls at the right places. Your safe is 2 concrete walls and 2 pits from a hallway at the top!

On a positive note, you have a lot of places for the player to explore and get trapped. A lot of dead ends. The safe is nicely hidden; it's not in a corner. Always kudos for that.

Last edited by jere (2014-02-17 11:47:36)

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 11:49:30

Is there any way to have 2 or more powered pits not connected to something that lets them walk right by like a wall or electric floor?

jere · 2014-02-17 11:55:35

I'm not following you. You can use unpowered trapdoors as pits, but they're 3 times as expensive. Is that what you meant?

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 12:02:21

No I mean, is there a way for you to have powered pits that need to get powered from somewhere, but have more than one, still not connected to a wired wall or something that way they can't just use saws and then a single ladder instead of two or more. I ask this because they can't conduct so i see no way of having more than one in a row that isn't connected to a safety bridge.

redxaxder · 2014-02-17 12:13:20

Oh! I'm the one who robbed you, Mr. John William Hanley.

One problem with your house was that the sightseeing cost was really low. I was able to leave and come back over and over for really low cost. Once I saw enough of your map, I was able to guess that the upper combo lock had a wire leading to your vault and sawed my way in.

Once you have a enough money in your house, it isn't enough to just protect your vault. You need to also protect information about the layout of the house. You should force every scouting trip that a robber makes to have a high minimum cost. A good example of this is the entryway of jere's (Mr. Charles Jeffrey Penn's) house. http://castledraft.com/editor/tTqh2D Leaving the house costs at least one ladder. Every time. This makes multiple scouting trips much more expensive.

Another problem is that it looks like you didn't plan for tool use. That bottom combo lock only takes 4 saws and 1 dog food to circumvent; the effective cost of bypassing it is $850 (it's better to consider sell cost rather than buy cost for the really common tools: saws, dog treats, water). That takes up a lot of house space for a mere $850 bypass cost. The pit and and door in the same hallway are redundant; either by itself is more expensive to get through than the saw route. Reinforce the weak parts instead of the strong ones.

I like the line of inactive grates toward the end. It forces the robber to have lots of wire cutters to go through that way safely, and wire cutters aren't one of the most common tools. It would be even better if a robber was forced to activate an off screen animal before stepping on them (even if it does nothing). That way there's an activation threat on every step.

jere · 2014-02-17 12:14:06

shit!

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 12:18:41

well have fun with your new 28k.

redxaxder · 2014-02-17 12:21:25

jere wrote:

shit!

That $28k was spent a long time ago. You have nothing to worry about

jere · 2014-02-17 12:26:39

phew

No I mean, is there a way for you to have powered pits that need to get powered from somewhere, but have more than one, still not connected to a wired wall or something that way they can't just use saws and then a single ladder instead of two or more. I ask this because they can't conduct so i see no way of having more than one in a row that isn't connected to a safety bridge.

Well, there has to be something that powers them, but you can go a long way toward isolating them. Something like this. http://castledraft.com/editor/87IIn1

I hinted at it in my other post. Each wired wooden wall section gets you 2 trapdoors and even if you start sawing after you get past the first trapdoor, you still have to deal with a powered door at the end. By the way, the camera might be off and this is not a very good house, just an example.

You should force every scouting trip that a robber makes to have a high minimum cost. A good example of this is the entryway of jere's (Mr. Charles Jeffrey Penn's) house. http://castledraft.com/editor/tTqh2D Leaving the house costs at least one ladder. Every time. This makes multiple scouting trips much more expensive.

Well, realize that this is a good strategy for defense but is not so great for getting people to come inside.

Last edited by jere (2014-02-17 12:32:39)

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 12:33:14

that is the dankest yet coolest combo lock i have ever seen. if i ever get that, please dont rob me.

Sybernetik · 2014-02-17 12:35:34

I think you'll find that combo locks are great for $2k suicides, but once someone targets you with a pack full of saws, your combo lock is worthless, which is why i've stopped using them.

redxaxder · 2014-02-17 12:36:10

If you actually build it, shift the whole thing down one row. So that the cats are all barely on screen.

jere · 2014-02-17 12:36:59

Yea... I knew the camera was going to be off. I can never remember how far you can see from the entrance.

Blip · 2014-02-17 18:00:50

jere wrote:

Assume that any robber will bring, for all intents and purposes, infinite saws.

This is a great point. As somebody who has looked into couter-bruteforcing in depth, my standard is to first prevent a theoretical robber with infinite saws, infinite water, infinite meat, infinite wire cutters, and one ladder from breaking my house without actually solving any single part of it. From there, try two ladders, or one ladder and one explosive; or, instead, make them solve at least two parts of your house. Counter-brutefrocing is, at its core, that simple: forcing robbers who don't intend to solve your traps to use a greater number of more expensive tools to circumvent them.

jere wrote:

Blip has written a nice post on avoiding tightly coupled design.

Thanks for the shout-out. It's always nice to see something I put work into recognized.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 18:10:06

how can you force them to use more than one ladder or an explosive and a ladder? maybe an example picture would be nice.

Blip · 2014-02-17 18:19:11

Here you go: the minimum to brute-force this house is two ladders, or some lucky guesses. In this case, it's not to unlikely for somebody to guess the lock, but with many cat corridors throughout your house, which all lead to the final trap in this manner, it becomes a good ending trap that requires some money and the forethought to bring multiple ladders to bypass.

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 18:33:08

if you switch it to this, it's even better!
http://castledraft.com/editor/cCks8L

redxaxder · 2014-02-17 18:35:45

Lord0fHam wrote:

how can you force them to use more than one ladder or an explosive and a ladder? maybe an example picture would be nice.

Visit me. I'm Gregory Jeffrey Andrus. The front door of my house immediately requires more than just 1 ladder and 1 explosive to get through. It isn't a combo lock.

Last edited by redxaxder (2014-02-17 18:36:14)

Lord0fHam · 2014-02-17 18:36:59

I know who you are! You're the bastard that robbed me! And I have the chills there right now. Screenshot or castledraft?

jere · 2014-02-17 18:47:24

Andrus and I are neighbors.

Pandamonium · 2014-02-17 18:50:04

redxaxder wrote:

Visit me. I'm Gregory Jeffrey Andrus. The front door of my house immediately requires more than just 1 ladder and 1 explosive to get through. It isn't a combo lock.

Don't trust him, he's trying to get you to fall into his traps!

haha

Lord0fHam wrote:

Screenshot or castledraft?

I love castledraft. can see it at work!

redxaxder · 2014-02-17 19:49:13

Well, since I died I might as well give you the whole thing. I don't want to reuse the design again anyway.

http://castledraft.com/editor/rLSEcy

I've really taken a liking to cats.

Last edited by redxaxder (2014-02-17 19:51:06)

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2014-02-17 11:16:59

Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#2 2014-02-17 11:29:28

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#3 2014-02-17 11:32:55

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#4 2014-02-17 11:45:08

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#5 2014-02-17 11:49:30

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#6 2014-02-17 11:55:35

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#7 2014-02-17 12:02:21

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#8 2014-02-17 12:13:20

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#9 2014-02-17 12:14:06

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#10 2014-02-17 12:18:41

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#11 2014-02-17 12:21:25

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#12 2014-02-17 12:26:39

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#13 2014-02-17 12:33:14

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#14 2014-02-17 12:35:34

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#15 2014-02-17 12:36:10

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#16 2014-02-17 12:36:59

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#17 2014-02-17 18:00:50

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#18 2014-02-17 18:10:06

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#19 2014-02-17 18:19:11

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#20 2014-02-17 18:33:08

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#21 2014-02-17 18:35:45

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#22 2014-02-17 18:36:59

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#23 2014-02-17 18:47:24

Re: Finally got robbed. Here is my house, please give me some tips.

#24 2014-02-17 18:50:04

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#25 2014-02-17 19:49:13

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