My opinion on Multiple Account Advantages

Cylence · 2014-03-29 19:59:00

Summary

Just sharing my thoughts on the advantages Multiple or N accounts.
These accounts can be owned by one person, or multiple people.
N Friends colluding have the same ability as 1 Person with N accounts.

I'll be looking at three different aspects:
Income - using N accounts to generate money.
Theft - using N accounts to eventually rob a house and or kill a wife.
Safety - using 2 accounts to prevent vault loss upon robbery death.

Note: I've read over the following recent threads along with older threads that I won't list:
This game is Broked
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2421
Nice and Nasty Players
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2434
Dual Accounts: As Bad As You Think?
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2448
Simple fix to dual account bouty crock of !@#$
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … hp?id=2447

-------------------------------------

Income

Let's discuss how to generate income through multiple accounts and bounties.

Killing family members - $1000 per member, 3 per household
Breaking vault - $500 per vault, once per hour up to a max of 4.
(thanks to joshwithguitar for the limits)
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 245#p14245
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 295#p14295

Blip has made a post (http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … 342#p14342)
which mentions how the community can contribute to making it easier or harder.
We will take that into consideration and assume that all houses besides our test subject(s) have protected families and vaults.

We'll start with N = 3.
There's plenty of different more risky ways of doing this, but I'm gonna attempt to make this as safe as possible to establish a minimum.

Account 1 = Protected House that Eats
Account 2 and 3 = Feeders.
Feeders buy 3 clubs ($600) then buy 1 dog ($320) and walls ($80) to create a harder to reach vault of $0.
We are gonna assume that the community would not spend the meat and 3 clubs to clean these houses out.
And even if they did, we can just rebuild it to try again.
Feeders club and rob themselves producing a $3500 bounty per feeder.
They can rob each other 3 more times over the course of 3 hours for an extra $1500 (may not be worth the attention).

After suicide in Main Account, that will be $10000 per day at the minimum with no help from the community.
It's not unlimited money, although it's still a good chunk of change that could be used to improve a house or buy tools.

In the non perfect community, I'd imagine that number would double to $20000 a day.
If they can kill 10 family members each by the time their house of clubs goes on the market (5 mins).
(of course, you could do a scouting run for easy families before refreshing the 2k state).
20 Clubs = $20k in bounty

Is this an advantage? Yes.
It all the depends on how the income is leveraged.

-------------------------------------

Theft

N accounts can make N 2k attempts to scout a house with tools per day.
N accounts can generate some income and make limited attempts, but with more (say 10k) in tools.
In either case, the point of the attempts are to map out a house and find the vault faster than a person can make a change (assuming they could even afford to).
A clear example of this is when people crowdsource maps. They are using multiple accounts to collectively break a house.
There's plenty of links and I'll let you guys find these yourself.

Is this an advantage? Yes
This still requires skill to minimize the cost of getting to a vault.

-------------------------------------

Safety

If account 1 makes a robbery attempt on another house, account 2 can "sit" in account 1's house.
If account 1 fails the robbery and dies, account 2 can complete the robbery, and split the cash by having account 1 rob them after re-spawn. (or just switch who the main account is if it's the same person)
If account 1 doesn't fail, account 2 simply exits.

Account 1 will still lose the house, but his vault contents can be saved.

Is this an advantage? Yes
This may be the only one going against the theme of paranoia and loss.
This is the only reported case that I know of:
http://thecastledoctrine.net/forums/vie … php?id=854

-------------------------------------

Conclusion

Advantages of multiple accounts will not disappear completely, although there have been efforts to mitigate (chills/limits). I've accepted that. And I'll still want to play until it hinders my enjoyment of the game.
I continue to play because I like watching people go through my house, seeing them work through the traps. The only time it would get boring is if they methodically broke each tile on the screen in the same way all the time (w/ infinite tools).
I continue to play because I like that feeling of dread when I'm in someone's house and could die at the next step/internet hiccup.

The game was set out to give you a sense of paranoia. The sense that your family and house is always in danger. It succeeds in that.
Multiple accounts don't take much away from that except for the safety angle. Although I'm not sure what you could do, except make a house's vault invalid at the moment of the owner's death, rendering any current robbery attempts fruitless.

This is not a competition among equals. This is a game where anything you built or worked for can be taken away with a careless mistake or an unfair circumstance/targeting. (I especially hate the internet connection deaths).
If you are looking for a fair game, this isn't it. Hopefully you can enjoy what it is.

To end, I'd like to share one of my fun moments of the castle doctrine.
I LOL'd when Welkin commented about a map of my house in his latest stream of Castle Doctrine at 3:00 minutes into the stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/akuwelkin/b/514402386

Welkin wrote:

... It's an older version, but at least it is a map of this guy's house, which may have been updated since.
Quite in-depth. Probably this guy isss... he's got holy sh*t complications in here. Like, I'd have to blow through some serious stuff, so let's skip him for now.

It gave me a ego boost in my building design. However, it would have been even more fun if you didn't skip me, Welkin. I look forward to your visit and any other videos you put up.

Blip · 2014-03-29 20:17:56

Really, really great analytical post. It's just what we need: to discuss this with facts. I just have one thing I have to question: does anybody actually have 3 accounts? I have two, and I know lots of other people do, but I don't know anybody who has three.

Also, no matter how much cash you have, skill is required to build houses and rob well. And with cash that is limited, as cash from multi-account stuff is, that is present even more. For example: you might be able to make $10k per day, but how many of us have build a top house with only $12k? Does it provides a nice stepping stone up to the top? Yes. But alt accounts don't instantly make any house truly great or successful.

Cylence · 2014-03-29 20:30:08

Blip wrote:

... I just have one thing I have to question: does anybody actually have 3 accounts? I have two, and I know lots of other people do, but I don't know anybody who has three.
Also, no matter how much cash you have, skill is required to build houses and rob well. And with cash that is limited, as cash from multi-account stuff is, that is present even more....

I don't know who has 3 accounts. But there's there's nothing stopping someone with 2 accounts to team up with a person with 1 account to do the same thing and split the difference. The beginning of my post states that it doesn't matter if it's one person, or multiple people colluding.

I'd have to say that less skill is required proportional to more money that you can easily get. In any case it'll still be fun watching that tape where someone uses $5000 worth of tools to break a $300 trap.

JoyOfTrapping · 2014-03-29 20:48:48

Tangential intro: Yes, there are people with 3 accounts. I personally have 1. But I am aware that people exist with 3. I have no idea how many, but some are definitely there. I know this with certainty. I don't feel a great desire to do it, but it still doesn't really bother me.

Blip wrote:

Really, really great analytical post. It's just what we need: to discuss this with facts.

Amen. That's right, it is what we need. I find it very useful to the conversation right now.

Cylence wrote:

I've accepted that. And I'll still want to play ... I continue to play because I like watching people go through my house ... I continue to play because I like that feeling of dread when I'm in someone's house and could die at the next step/internet hiccup.
The game was set out to give you a sense of paranoia. The sense that your family and house is always in danger. It succeeds in that.
Multiple accounts don't take much away from that ...
This is not a competition among equals. This is a game where anything you built or worked for can be taken away with a careless mistake or an unfair circumstance/targeting ...
If you are looking for a fair game, this isn't it. Hopefully you can enjoy what it is.

Amen. First, I agree. I feel this way about the situation myself. In fact, your conclusion pretty well sums up how I feel most times a potential imbalance issue arises. Second, just thanks for writing this. It's cool that you use what I'm guessing is a research background in service to the community.

Lord0fHam · 2014-03-29 21:16:07

Blip wrote:

I just have one thing I have to question: does anybody actually have 3 accounts? I have two, and I know lots of other people do, but I don't know anybody who has three.

I could get another 2 accounts (3 total) from my friends, but they are assholes so I don't have them. One of them was making me play this game over Skype called 30 questions. It's like 20 questions, but i can't see the thing cause it's in his room and he can be as big of a dick as he wants about the answers and can bend the laws of the universe (he told me carbon fiber was plastic ._.), so i'm not getting his.

Blip wrote:

Also, no matter how much cash you have, skill is required to build houses and rob well.

This is also true. even if someone can boost themself, if they are not good at the game for real, they will still die to self tests, failed robberies, and still get robbed because they can't build a real house. Personally, I think 2 accounts are totally OK. It offers no REAL game breaking advantages to noobies, and all it does for experienced players who have been on the top before is allow them to bypass the boring middle class.

StefanLindskog · 2014-03-30 02:38:53

Thank you, Cylence. This analytical approach, and the responses to it so far, enlightens me. First - it is obvious to me that having multiple accounts is an advantage. Second - people aren't afraid to use this advantage. I consider myself a good builder and a mediocre robber, and no matter how good I get at robbing there will always be someone out of reach for me because they are better than me (which is fine by me) or equally good or better while sitting on more than one account (which is not acceptable in my opinion). The only logical thing for me to do is to stop playing. I bet a lot of people will conclude the same way in the weeks to come. That, or buy second or even third accounts. This trend will not subside, and it will lead to a marginalization of the player crowd. Those with an excellent understanding of TCD and those willing to aquire extra accounts will stay, the rest will leave. I won't be a part of it, and am leaving right now. I had fun while playing, and I thank you all for that.

EDIT: Spelling

Last edited by StefanLindskog (2014-03-30 02:40:10)

eppfel · 2014-03-30 03:01:56

Cylence wrote:

Blip wrote:
... I just have one thing I have to question: does anybody actually have 3 accounts? ...
I don't know who has 3 accounts.

I have. Any particular questions?

StefanLindskog wrote:

... no matter how good I get at robbing there will always be someone out of reach for me because they are better than me (which is fine by me) or equally good or better while sitting on more than one account (which is not acceptable in my opinion).

Sry, but from which point do you draw this conclusion? If there is someone as good as me and uses a dual account, he creates more wealth in the game, I rob him and profit from it.
Still sad to see you go :-(

Actually I want to add one more mechanism duals could abuse:

Vault Safety
-------------------------------------
If account 1 and 2 have "good" houses and living wives. One could rob the other making the house impossible to rob without tools.

Advantage: Yes!
This could even be used to force a ton of ladders and crowbars.

Conclusion
-------------------------------------

I think, Cylence, you are absolutely right. I'am still waiting for evidence that duals accounts where used in a game breaking way. And now, the rest of you enjoy my 3 houses. ^^

ventuswings · 2014-03-30 03:13:17

I thought formerly the bounty system was that one's bounty increased $1000 per number of robberies where he committed the murder, regardless of number killed. Had that been altered or did I misunderstood back then? Either way, implementing this bounty system back should quite cut back the bounty boost dual accounts get from killing all the kids ($3000 to $1000).

Cylence · 2014-03-30 08:28:29

StefanLindskog wrote:

... The only logical thing for me to do is to stop playing. I bet a lot of people will conclude the same way in the weeks to come. That, or buy second or even third accounts. This trend will not subside, and it will lead to a marginalization of the player crowd... I had fun while playing, and I thank you all for that...

Sorry to see you go StefanLindskog. However, I'm not sure on your "trend." It could happen, or it could not. The player base feels small already. As far as buying more accounts, I want to point out that using multiple accounts doesn't require you to buy more accounts (if you can make friends).

Also, more money and resources is always going to be an advantage in LIFE. It affords more time to dedicate, better coaches, more tools, etc. But don't let that stop you from getting what YOU want from the game. I understand if what you wanted from this game isn't here anymore. Hopefully there will be a mod that provides it. I still have yet to try iceman's mod.

My house will probably go down soon, W. B. Tedder is visiting right now, and I've got my next design waiting to be built. It's a house with different puzzle sections which will let you out after each section if you feel like leaving. Of course you can still die during the solving, but I was trying to find a way to build a house in this brute force world that can still present the puzzles I want to those venturing tool-less thefts, and I think I found a happy medium. I'll try to invite you when that happens.

Also, if you do decide to come back, I would recommend working on your robbery skills more. Spend your previous life scouting (w/out dying) for a new house. You'll be able to visit in your second life w/ the proper tools. You'll find that it's not too hard to jump start you income, you'll eventually learn which houses to hit and which to avoid. Take care.

p.s. Let me know if you read this. if not I'll send you an email later.

StefanLindskog · 2014-03-30 08:58:51

Hi Cylence. Thanks for the encouragement! I feel the urge to play already, but I will resist for a week. After that, if I still feel like playing - I'll put my toe back in the water. I do love this game. It has all the stuff I adore in a game. AS you've no doubt already understood I have a pretty low tolerance for people giving themselves unfair advantage. I'm like that in real life too. Strong believer in equality - naive, I know. The world is after all an unfair place.

Last edited by StefanLindskog (2014-03-30 09:00:25)

Cylence · 2014-03-30 10:39:09

Thanks for replying. I just died. My house had a good run. I would have revealed it if it had been broken, but unfortunately it takes the life of me (again). I've got a mapshot if I want to recreate it later. Might step away a bit, then onto my puzzle design.

Edit: Premature submit. Wanted to type out the message below.

I just wanted to say, I understand your want for fairness. However, beating the odds also has it's place. There'd be no underdog in a fair world. And I love rooting for underdogs.

Last edited by Cylence (2014-03-30 10:41:38)

Cylence · 2014-03-30 12:14:53

JoyOfTrapping wrote:

...thanks for writing this. It's cool that you use what I'm guessing is a research background in service to the community.

JoyOfTrapping
Your welcome. Although, no research background. Just an experienced programmer who loves games.

Lord0fHam wrote:

I think 2 accounts are totally OK. It offers no REAL game breaking advantages to noobies, and all it does for experienced players who have been on the top before is allow them to bypass the boring middle class.

Lord0fHam
Whether you have one person with two accounts or two people working together the advantages are just unavoidable. It offers big advantages to weaker and stronger players. I think the current mitigation isn't enough yet. We have yet to see the damage it can create in the hands of skilled players (or player), which is why I can still play. However, the possibility exists which I'll explain below.

eppfel wrote:

...If there is someone as good as me and uses a dual account, he creates more wealth in the game, I rob him and profit from it. ... I'am still waiting for evidence that duals accounts where used in a game breaking way.

eppfel
I think you are assuming you'd get to see that wealth before you get wrecked.

Imagine this:
Some friends work together or one person has multiple accounts, it doesn't matter. Over some time (depends on the amount of people/accounts), they build a huge bounty on just 1 account (could be more than one but it doesn't matter). You can't take this from them. You can rob them blind, but they can just keep feeding him more and more clubs to kill off families. At some point, that bounty is delivered. And they take the new found wealth, distribute it across multiple accounts and collectively use it to wreck every house before you can get your multiple accounts or friends to generate enough income to fight back. The possibility is scary, isn't it?

Is being able to clean the house list game breaking? Depends on the game. In a game where you are supposed to be in fear of something like that happening, I'm not so sure. But there's no need keep waiting for evidence that the possibility exists.

I'm not sure on the fix or if it should be. A lower max bounty would go a long way. Removing bounty reward increases for houses valued at 2k or less would help too. However, I'm not sure how that would change game incentives for robbery. And it still doesn't stop a team from crowd-sourcing a map to just break you.

Blip · 2014-03-30 12:26:20

Cylence wrote:

Imagine this:
Some friends work together or one person has multiple accounts, it doesn't matter. Over some time (depends on the amount of people/accounts), they build a huge bounty on just 1 account (could be more than one but it doesn't matter). You can't take this from them. You can rob them blind, but they can just keep feeding him more and more clubs to kill off families. At some point, that bounty is delivered. And they take the new found wealth, distribute it across multiple accounts and collectively use it to wreck every house before you can get your multiple accounts or friends to generate enough income to fight back. The possibility is scary, isn't it?

I honestly don't see why anybody would do this. I have two accounts, and I only use them so that I don't have to sit around waiting for bounties as my only income source when in the lower-middle class. When I have only $2k or $3k to my name, and a house that I like, I really don't have enough cash to buy enough tools to rob as safely as I would like; so I normally would have to wait for bounties. Dual accounts lets me skip that waiting, and jump up to a higher wealth level quickly. However, I do this so that I can have more fun by removing waiting! Using many accounts to build up arbitrarily large amounts of cash and then rob everyone blind would be less fun, so it seems pointless to do so.

Last edited by Blip (2014-03-30 12:26:39)

iceman · 2014-03-30 12:35:13

I'd say the same people who bring a lot of tools to completely demolish a $200 house- they take pleasure in destroying other people's (ingame) lives.

Cylence · 2014-03-30 12:42:47

Blip wrote:

I honestly don't see why anybody would do this.

I'm not saying you would or wouldn't. I'm not saying someone would or wouldn't. I think it's irrelevant to discuss what someone would or wouldn't do. What's pointless to you may not be pointless to someone else.
I'm just saying it's possible because of what you just stated.

Blip wrote:

... Dual accounts lets me skip that waiting, and jump up to a higher wealth level quickly.

eppfel · 2014-03-30 14:25:28

..about the topic. Still processing...

Just a thought: What if Jason would change the license model to multiple houses. Because all these mechanics of using multiple accounts in multiple ways have some tactics on their own. And with everyone having the same chances, it would not be 'unfair' anymore.

super_maçon · 2014-03-31 04:41:23

Blip wrote:

I have two accounts, and I only use them so that I don't have to sit around waiting for bounties as my only income source when in the lower-middle class. When I have only $2k or $3k to my name, and a house that I like, I really don't have enough cash to buy enough tools to rob as safely as I would like; so I normally would have to wait for bounties. Dual accounts lets me skip that waiting, and jump up to a higher wealth level quickly. However, I do this so that I can have more fun by removing waiting!

So while the game want you to have a rough start, trying to scout what you can, take some big risk while having a low value house to defend your starting fund forcing you to be creative you just skip it. Take some free money and play safer with more money to start.

Sure no big deal.

eppfel wrote:

..about the topic. Still processing...
Just a thought: What if Jason would change the license model to multiple houses. Because all these mechanics of using multiple accounts in multiple ways have some tactics on their own. And with everyone having the same chances, it would not be 'unfair' anymore.

I always though that when a game/mechanics/program macro etc... Allow some players to get a advantage you should allows that by default.

I don't know about this one, but it could worth a try if there's no other solution.

The Castle Doctrine Forums

#1 2014-03-29 19:59:00