Discuss the massively-multiplayer home defense game.
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4. Getting the map needs more brain power to solve it. ( I tried with high-end houses, takes you quite a while to see everything and calculate every step. ) --> currently this is valid for Snyder's house.
I did not see it full. I went in it once though, like 2 - 3 lives before.
You claim that you used map hacks to access maps for high-end houses, including Snyder's.
But then you claimed to have only "went in his house once".
Unless I'm reading one of these posts wrong (and feel free to correct me), you're contradicting yourself.
I already said it was on DarkunderdoG's server.
I didn't see that, that's my bad. I didn't realize there were other community servers up other than MMaster's (and iceman's Fortress Theory, but that's closed source for now).
Question is the whole map downloaded, hence a wiz with the open source code could work out how to read a whole map without fog, or is the segments downloaded from the server as the player moves? (Rohrer has done a good job of making me paranoid)
How it works is the client downloads a full map of the house to be robbed, and returns a final map, a list of moves, and an outcome (died, succeeded, killed family). The list of moves is then validated by a headless client running server side to make sure it gives the same results and final map. With that validated, the robbery has officially took place on the server.
However, it's key to note that the way that move-list is generated is not checkable by the server. For example, an undo button could be added, or full map view could be implemented.
iceman, it would be great if you'd put that auto-house thing in it. -- I'll just post how to do it so everybody knows.
Would there be a clean server-side way to do this, or do all the clients have to be modified?
Because I can't think of any good server side ways off the top of my head, but my gut feeling says there is one.
Im working to get all the Dermatillomainian ones by Alex Diamond, but I only have 2 atm.
Woah, guys, before we make wild accusations, I don't think DaVinci actually intends to use the hack ruin the main server. I mean I'd be a prime target, and I haven't been robbed yet, so...
It would suck if he did though.
I would be fine if he didn't claim to have seen your map. I completely understand the desire to mess with the source and do what you want with it (I has some non-cheaty changes on my old clients), but not in an unfair manner on the main server.
I hope you know you can set your own server up.
DaVinci, I fully know that you can set up your own server. I also know that Snyder's house map (which you have seen in full) is on the main server, though, and that seems to be the sticking point here. You claimed to have attempted to solve houses given full map view; on your own server, with no other players, there would be no other houses to "fuck up" solving. So please, feel free to modify your client, but if it's an unfair modification, don't use it on the main server against other players.
I'm trusting you that you haven't been doing so and that you won't in the future.
PsyBlade wrote:It's hard to tell what is accidental and what is intentional.
People have done exactly as you did only to take the first right after freeing the dog and be trapped between it and the one waiting after the turn.
But I guess you figured you my ingame name from matching a house to my various comments about it. So its reasonable to assume that you got it.You can exit a house safely up until the moment when the sirens timer runs out. So any death before that should be hackable to exit.
Besides, no one would write such a hack anyway. Simply getting a full map instead is both easier to do and more effective too.1. Movelists can be changed to anything.
2. I already wrote the hack. 1337.
3. Getting the map is as easy as changing your movelist.
4. Getting the map needs more brain power to solve it. ( I tried with high-end houses, takes you quite a while to see everything and calculate every step. ) --> currently this is valid for Snyder's house.
5. I actually wrote the movelist hack only because I'd fuck up when I attempted to solve the maps. ( but I think you'll have to disconnect client from server entirely since I believe server doesn't actually time it. )
Honestly, what the fuck? In compiling your client, you had to have read the secret string that states, and I quote:
Please do not use this secret string to connect unfairly modded clients to the main server. Keep in mind that this is an indie, open-source game made entirely by one person. I am trusting you to do the right thing. --Jason
In modifying the clint as you did, DaVinci, you broke that trust to do the right thing. You are going against not only the principles of the game, but common courtesy to the developer and other players. Because of the very nature of this being an open source indie title, we have to trust each other to not completely break the rules of the game. And you're openly admitting to breaking that trust.
It's not impressive to modify open source software. You are not "1337" for doing this. I know my C++ well enough to whip up a simple change like what you did. I have no doubt in my mind that there are others on these forums that could do so as well, if not do more; probably anybody could after an introductory class in the language. But I don't do that and I trust that others don't either. Your modified client is just an example of you being an asshole to all the other players and members of this community, including Jason, and not you being cool or skilled.
The purpose of this game is to rob houses based on partial information: what you can and have seen in those houses. If you don't want to play that way, there are lots of fine games out there for you. However, we don't want you here.
That is a nice place; I like how you your instal trap is both deadly and very hard to bypass, a pairing that's pretty hard to find. I wish I has ended up getting a shot at it, but it fell before I had a chance to get armed and ready, as most of my wealth is currently in cash, not tools.
Sounds like your settings files got overwritten. You guys could try to delete the "email.ini" and "downloadCode.ini" (make a backup copy before to be safe!). They should be recreated on the next start with your correct data.
Frosty's method (above) has been working for others with the same problem.
I just realized this... the painting Time is changing! There's a guy in it now!
Iceman, will you be changing it every version? I'm exited to see what comes next.
Hiding the wife behind pit-bulls seems like such a waste of space, though. As williad said, you can build better traps without having to worry about a pit-bull corridor for the wife - a dead family, most notably, allows for a trap on the first tile in front of the entrance. Using wife-traps seems like a way to use your wife until she dies such that she is less of a waste of space. Usually, by the time she dies while in a wife-trap, your vault defenses are so good that you don't need her as "backup cash", and if somebody did reach your vault (probably by brute-force and cutting walls), the money your wife held would likely not be enough to repair anyways.
Ah, fine print. Making all statements true* since 1958!
*True is a relative term which may in some cases mean "false"
Blip wrote:Edit: Your wife was less protected than I thought! Also, the "cat then pit bull" method doesn't work that well, as you clearly saw. Sorry about the children, but I needed my revenge. And a nice profit too!
np, sadly my vault got compromised after you left the house in it's state. Would have loved to see you try. The cat+dog thing... no comment ;-)
You seem to have rebuilt now, sir. How about we call it a draw, and leave each other's vaults be? I really don't want to enter a feud that might chance the loss of my beloved painting, known as... um... dewoihgfoiwhdmainian abyss, I think.
But i clearly miscounted the steps for the cat at the pit. 3 guns more would have made it unprofitable i guess.
Profit or lack of it will not prevent revenge. We're even now, though. Just two widowers with only some killer dogs to love us.
I have to go now, so I won't get another chance until a couple hours from now. Good luck to all of you.
Blip wrote:Well, she's dead. Along with our kids. I will get my revenge, Mr. Hamblin!
Therefore you take way to shy glances into my house. ;-) I'm curious about your first move...
I'm sorry I killed your family, but the 8k in cash were just too tempting. Knowing it is your house, makes my decision to not waste all my money on tools to get to your vault look wise. First I was thinking: "Who keeps his wife out in the open like that. I guess his vault is just around the corner."
My vault was behind three more layers of traps, and some of the best I've ever designed, if I do say so myself. Right now I'm not plotting anything, but once I get a little more time and cash, I might make a move. Your wooden walls look very tempting... also, your wife sort of deserves a clubbing.
Edit: Your wife was less protected than I thought! Also, the "cat then pit bull" method doesn't work that well, as you clearly saw. Sorry about the children, but I needed my revenge. And a nice profit too!
Imagine this:
Some friends work together or one person has multiple accounts, it doesn't matter. Over some time (depends on the amount of people/accounts), they build a huge bounty on just 1 account (could be more than one but it doesn't matter). You can't take this from them. You can rob them blind, but they can just keep feeding him more and more clubs to kill off families. At some point, that bounty is delivered. And they take the new found wealth, distribute it across multiple accounts and collectively use it to wreck every house before you can get your multiple accounts or friends to generate enough income to fight back. The possibility is scary, isn't it?
I honestly don't see why anybody would do this. I have two accounts, and I only use them so that I don't have to sit around waiting for bounties as my only income source when in the lower-middle class. When I have only $2k or $3k to my name, and a house that I like, I really don't have enough cash to buy enough tools to rob as safely as I would like; so I normally would have to wait for bounties. Dual accounts lets me skip that waiting, and jump up to a higher wealth level quickly. However, I do this so that I can have more fun by removing waiting! Using many accounts to build up arbitrarily large amounts of cash and then rob everyone blind would be less fun, so it seems pointless to do so.
Blip wrote:I don't see you on the list anymore. Were you robbed?
That was me in my many scouting attempts
I have the house mapped out, so you have 30 minutes to rob him =P
Whether I get the money or not, that was a very enjoyable house to rob!
Well, I died to a misstep, and with most of the correct route mapped out as well. It looks like you've got this one in the bag, iceman.
I don't see you on the list anymore. Were you robbed?
Well, she's dead. Along with our kids. I will get my revenge, Mr. Hamblin!
It's a clever design for a deathtrap, but not something that I would want to use without something else (at least a choice trap) behind it, as it seems that robbers might easily stumble on the solution without even knowing it.
Really, really great analytical post. It's just what we need: to discuss this with facts. I just have one thing I have to question: does anybody actually have 3 accounts? I have two, and I know lots of other people do, but I don't know anybody who has three.
Also, no matter how much cash you have, skill is required to build houses and rob well. And with cash that is limited, as cash from multi-account stuff is, that is present even more. For example: you might be able to make $10k per day, but how many of us have build a top house with only $12k? Does it provides a nice stepping stone up to the top? Yes. But alt accounts don't instantly make any house truly great or successful.
So I have a house (I'm not going to tell my name) that has a good amount of cash in it. I recently realized that it's sort of ridiculous that my wife still is being used as a fail-safe for my initial trap, the same way she was used in the initial 2k house. She holds a good amount of cash, and is currently very easy to get to for the robber! However, my trap has evolved such that I have little room for a dog-path for her and our kids, so I've just been keeping her in her shooting-robbers role right now.
Is this really as crazy as it might seem? What do you guys think: is using your wife to augment your trap while rich, thus saving space and getting a unique trap asset, worth the risk of losing the cash the carries?
I had a moment a few days ago where i died self testing a 30k house. it worked fine when i used indicator lights and chihuahuas, but for some reason a pit wasnt closed when i did the real test. i am absolutely 100% positive i did the house right, so i don't know what went wrong and it really sucked. maybe a broke some wiring by accident when placing the real traps?
I always take a map-shot before I self test, then check it over. Even if I miss something and die, I can go back and scrutinize that map and get some closure as to why I died. It's way more fulfilling.
I forget to close up the cat chutes
Was yours the place with two corridors behind doors containing three cats each, right by the entrance? I never really tried robbing it, but always wondered what exactly the cats did.
And here's my house, give or take a couple of mistakes updating a slightly out of date draft with a lack of fucks given: http://castledraft.com/editor/rWj9eq
It was supposed to be (and was for a while) a good balance between security and entertainment,
but by adding those two powered pits making it so that you need precise timing to get a specific dog to get you through a commitment gate I really went too far.
You might think collecting enough art eventually attracts a better class of robber. You'd be wrong.
I like this design a lot conceptually, but in practice, it has too many specific weak points for my liking. Despite costing over 100k to build, it can be brute forced for 9.5k, and mostly using common tools that the rich have boatloads of anyways. Anyone looking to brute-force this house would be out of their mind not to just cut along the wooden walls above the initial floors (For his own sake, I hope PsyBlade did this, or he really shouldn't be calling himself clever in the least). From there, blasting the wall would be the next, smart course of action: the robber can see that the wall is one thick, and thus can get past it for a pretty small cost. A doorstop then grants them safe entry into the penultimate area of the house. Finally, smart sawing would leave them with only two trapdoors to ladder over before they reached your vault!
This is a textbook example of a great, clever, and deadly design that's downfall is all to simple: thin, and often wooden walls. Frankly, with houses even a fraction of this complexity level, the chance of the intended solution being discovered is next to nothing. Protection against brute-forcing is what becomes paramount to success: build houses with thick concrete/pit walls, use methods to prevent tool use, and aim to stop robbers from being able to use tools to bypass solving your house.
Why not just let us block the gas exits of the machines by throwing the cardboard boxes on top of them?
This. It would balance the OP poison gas machine and make the box more useful.
I agree with Cyclene here: give players the choice to map themselves if they feel like they need it. It takes time to map, and that's time out of your 10 minute robbery timer in which you aren't robbing.
I'l also like to add that the lack of mapping people generally do for low-level robberies is a good thing. Few people take the time to map out a house with only $1k in it, and that will occasionally lead to deaths based on forgetfulness: "wait, which door was the dog behind?". Auto mapping these houses would make the game even harder for players with low-level houses, who are generally newer players. We don't want the new players to leave the game because they're getting robbed incredibly easily!